Lexus LC 500 & LC 500h Megathread

[DarkSpace6383]

Crazy that there no replacement and nothing remotely close so you have to basically jump brands. Interest has skyrocketed since the cancellation announcement. The GR GT is completely different in execution and we assume will be more expensive. So now there is a massive gaping hole.

Lexus has become a joke.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Perhaps a Lexus version of the Supra with an inline-6?

largely expected. hoping its closer to lc and not rc.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

largely expected. hoping its closer to lc and not rc.

Strongly doubt that. LC might be a one-off as a luxury flagship grand touring coupe. Lexus tried to turn it into a proper high performance LCF. As you might know, the GR GT has the engine that was originally developed for the LCF. The prototypes were seen testing for quite some time, but what I heard was that Akio Toyoda was unsatisfied with the results particularly after all of the beefed up components were reportedly about 400 lbs than the LC at around 4800 lbs so it got scrapped. If Lexus does come up with a GR version of something like a 2 door sports coupe, it will be something much smaller, lighter and more high performance focused.

 

[ssun30]

No the LCF did not have a weight problem. The prototype was about 1900kg so actually slightly lighter than the LC500. It had a power problem. The engine was originally designed for 600PS but by the time LCF prototype was ready, the S63 was pushing 620PS at the wheels on an AWD platform and the M178 made 730PS on the GTBS. The power target was raised to 650PS and then 720PS, and torque target from 650N.m to 700N.m and finally 850N.m. The redesigned 720PS version has trouble complying with Euro 6d which combined with COVID delayed the engine by 2 years, which led to the cancellation of all three V8TT Lexus F cars.

The development of this engine is so troubled that it took over twice the time they designed the 1LR (the 1LR benefitted from active experience with the F1 program). It's the victim of TMC's mentality of benchmarking against existing competitor offerings instead of future proofing against competitors' next generation.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

No the LCF did not have a weight problem. The prototype was about 1900kg so actually slightly lighter than the LC500. It had a power problem. The engine was originally designed for 600PS but by the time LCF prototype was ready, the S63 was pushing 620PS at the wheels on an AWD platform and the M178 made 730PS on the GTBS. The power target was raised to 650PS and then 720PS, and torque target from 650N.m to 700N.m and finally 850N.m. The redesigned 720PS version has trouble complying with Euro 6d which combined with COVID delayed the engine by 2 years, which led to the cancellation of all three V8TT Lexus F cars.

The development of this engine is so troubled that it took over twice the time they designed the 1LR (the 1LR benefitted from active experience with the F1 program). It's the victim of TMC's mentality of benchmarking against existing competitor offerings instead of future proofing against competitors' next generation.

So that is about 200 lbs lighter than an LC? This is different from what I heard. The LS chassis (shortened version of it), is very heavy and that was the primary reason especially with additional reinforcements plus the added cooling, additional weight of 4.0 Liter V8 TT engine etc., ended up ballooning the weight. Unless Lexus was planning on using extensive carbon fiber panels etc. to result in weight loss, it is not typical of a higher performing model to be lighter than a base model. Not just a Lexus thing. A Z06 is heavier than a Stingray, the ZR1 is heavier than the Z06. The GT500 is heavier than GT350 despite having more CF etc.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

So that is about 200 lbs lighter than an LC? This is different from what I heard. The LS chassis (shortened version of it), is very heavy and that was the primary reason especially with additional reinforcements plus the added cooling, additional weight of 4.0 Liter V8 TT engine etc., ended up ballooning the weight. Unless Lexus was planning on using extensive carbon fiber panels etc. to result in weight loss, it is not typical of a higher performing model to be lighter than a base model. Not just a Lexus thing. A Z06 is heavier than a Stingray, the ZR1 is heavier than the Z06. The GT500 is heavier than GT350 despite having more CF etc.

Either way, I don't think it would be based on the outgoing RWD platform. My guess is that it will be based on the Mk6 Supra Architecture I really want Lexus to go almost exclusively RWD-based though.

 

[ssun30]

Unless Lexus was planning on using extensive carbon fiber panels etc. to result in weight loss, it is not typical of a higher performing model to be lighter than a base model. Not just a Lexus thing. A Z06 is heavier than a Stingray, the ZR1 is heavier than the Z06. The GT500 is heavier than GT350 despite having more CF etc.

Yes, they replaced most body panels with CFRP and deleted the second row.

 

[sl0519]

Yes, they replaced most body panels with CFRP and deleted the second row.

Why is the GA-L platform so heavy? The LS 500 is like ~2.3 tons, while the W223 S-Class is only around 2.1. That’s a pretty big gap.

Did Lexus just not push as hard on lightweight materials? I remember reading that a lot of the body structure is still steel, while competitors are using way more aluminum.

I get that big luxury sedans aren’t the main focus anymore, but this kind of weight difference absolutely adds up. It’s definitely part of why they’re fumbling so hard.

 

[Ali Manai]

Why is the GA-L platform so heavy? The LS 500 is like ~2.3 tons, while the W223 S-Class is only around 2.1. That’s a pretty big gap.

Did Lexus just not push as hard on lightweight materials? I remember reading that a lot of the body structure is still steel, while competitors are using way more aluminum.

I get that big luxury sedans aren’t the main focus anymore, but this kind of weight difference absolutely adds up. It’s definitely part of why they’re fumbling so hard.

The new crown sedan and previous crown are also based on ga-l platform and are about the same or even lighter than their competitors ie e class and 5 series

 

[mikeavelli]

Sorry the LC F did have weight issues. Was told this and they were trying to fix it. When there is platform sharing, smaller cars always suffer a weigh penalty. In this case LC and LS.

The GR GT being bespoke is lighter even as a v-8 twin turbo hybrid with similar dimension.

 

[gecko]

Order confirmed for production last month, it was built last week and should depart for USA tomorrow.

Still feels pretty surreal, but I’m very excited!

 

[CRSKTN]

None of you may share this view, but the challenges and limitations handed to the team on the LC F and LS F meant they were set up to fail.

They still got to where they should be to find buyers (trust me, people would've bought them if you made them look and sound menacing as hell, and priced them properly and were willing to have them be a low volume low margin leader for the brand), and they could've beefed performance if they had wanted to. The idea that Toyota Motor Company cannot find an extra 50hp out of something, or find some weight savings is ridiculous. They redid the entire LFA in carbon fibre.

The real reason they got sacked instead of improved and over the line is because the writing was on the wall that Lexus is just a testbed brand, and we can't let it grow beyond a profit center. It cannot have an ongoing cohesive lineup. All models, especially the main ones, have to be made vestigial and reduced over time, it needs to facilitate those models changing to new models that are what we need (e.g. EVs, badge jobs, etc), maintain the fat profit generators, and not let Lexus economically grow too big for Toyota shareholders.

Trust me, if Lexus blows the doors off, Akio's life doesn't get better.

The decision was made that future moonshots would be made under "Toyota" brands and names, e.g. Toyota, Century, GR, Crown.

The problem is now they're going to pull a Toyota and ruin it by not realizing what made things like the LFA possible and loved in the first place.

Although the engineering criticisms, etc are potentially valid, this overall is a story of ego and politics over engineering and technical limitations.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

None of you may share this view, but the challenges and limitations handed to the team on the LC F and LS F meant they were set up to fail.

They still got to where they should be to find buyers (trust me, people would've bought them if you made them look and sound menacing as hell, and priced them properly and were willing to have them be a low volume low margin leader for the brand), and they could've beefed performance if they had wanted to. The idea that Toyota Motor Company cannot find an extra 50hp out of something, or find some weight savings is ridiculous. They redid the entire LFA in carbon fibre.

The real reason they got sacked instead of improved and over the line is because the writing was on the wall that Lexus is just a testbed brand, and we can't let it grow beyond a profit center. It cannot have an ongoing cohesive lineup. All models, especially the main ones, have to be made vestigial and reduced over time, it needs to facilitate those models changing to new models that are what we need (e.g. EVs, badge jobs, etc), maintain the fat profit generators, and not let Lexus economically grow too big for Toyota shareholders.

Trust me, if Lexus blows the doors off, Akio's life doesn't get better.

The decision was made that future moonshots would be made under "Toyota" brands and names, e.g. Toyota, Century, GR, Crown.

The problem is now they're going to pull a Toyota and ruin it by not realizing what made things like the LFA possible and loved in the first place.

Although the engineering criticisms, etc are potentially valid, this overall is a story of ego and politics over engineering and technical limitations.

None of us share this view for a reason. Crown has never really come close to Lexus and is doing a decent job of being an intermediate option. We are seeing more auto groups have an intermediate brand/sub-brand in some capacity (cupra with vwg for example). I think what Lexus did was probably the right thing (until it was rebadged to GR in the 11th hour), but they should've also had a coupe that slots between LC and RC (but closer to LC) as a joint successor. The main issue for me is that they saw the existence of GR as it's own brand as reason to effectively kill off Lexus's performance divison and motorsport division, something that wasn't necessary (both can co-exist imo). Also regarding "toyota brand names", aside from crown, the whole trajectory with GR and Century is to move AWAY from toyota branding. I will admit they haven't really done it very smoothly, but thats the longterm goal.

 

[ssun30]

None of us share this view for a reason. Crown has never really come close to Lexus and is doing a decent job of being an intermediate option. We are seeing more auto groups have an intermediate brand/sub-brand in some capacity (cupra with vwg for example). I think what Lexus did was probably the right thing (until it was rebadged to GR in the 11th hour), but they should've also had a coupe that slots between LC and RC (but closer to LC) as a joint successor. The main issue for me is that they saw the existence of GR as it's own brand as reason to effectively kill off Lexus's performance divison and motorsport division, something that wasn't necessary (both can co-exist imo). Also regarding "toyota brand names", aside from crown, the whole trajectory with GR and Century is to move AWAY from toyota branding. I will admit they haven't really done it very smoothly, but thats the longterm goal.

Building a brand takes decades. Even very well established brandswith long legacy are very cautious about independent branding. Maybach is one of the oldest car brands ever existed and had very rich legacy, and the brand still flopped hard. Mercedes did the right thing to make it an ultra luxury trim option instead of a dedicated brand and the new Maybach identity is a major commercial success. And Mercedes won't make the same mistake by making AMG a separate brand and removing the tristar badge, even though it's now arguably the most well recognized and successful motorsport icon.

Toyota has one brand name that they have been building globally for decades and that's the Land Cruiser. Land Cruisers are in every corner of the world and keep appearing on TV news as long as warfare is still a thing. It is the only independent brand they could successfully launch yet they refused to do that and instead launch 3 sub-brands nobody out of Japan knows.

 

[Levi]

Akio does not want to dissociate Landcruiser from Toyota, that is the problem.