Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread (II)

[spwolf]

2023 Toyota Vios - next-gen D92A sedan gets sporty looks, red dashboard, DNGA platform? August 9 debut - paultan.org

It has been previously indicated that the all-new Toyota Vios was set for an August debut, and now it has been confirmed that this is indeed the case – Toyota Thailand has just released a …

paultan.org

The dashboard looks very Mazda-ish.

it does look a lot like Mazda 3 interior. Nice.

 

[carguy420]

it does look a lot like Mazda 3 interior. Nice.

Just have to wait a few more days for its debut, not sure if we'll see an engine that's as impressive as its interior lol.

 

[ssun30]

Just have to wait a few more days for its debut, not sure if we'll see an engine that's as impressive as its interior lol.

The 1.5 and 1.5 hybrid are perfectly fine for the markets it's sold in...try driving on a typical Southeast Asian street and you'd be lucky to get above 50km/h.

 

[carguy420]

The 1.5 and 1.5 hybrid are perfectly fine for the markets it's sold in...try driving on a typical Southeast Asian street and you'd be lucky to get above 50km/h.

What I meant was the new Vios might still reuse the slightly disappointing 2NR-FE instead of switching over to the M15A-FKS.

But then the rumours I heard from Thailand said there will be a hybrid version for this new Vios and that version would actually be using the M15A hybrid. It's confusing.

 

[ssun30]

What I meant was the new Vios might still reuse the slightly disappointing 2NR-FE instead of switching over to the M15A-FKS.

But then the rumours I heard from Thailand said there will be a hybrid version for this new Vios and that version would actually be using the M15A hybrid. It's confusing.

Thailand has lower excise tax rates for "eco cars" under 1300cc. In India the line is 1200cc. I don't think the base Vios will use the 1500cc 2NR but rather the 1200cc 3NR-FE. 1200cc is the sweetspot for most of SEA.

I don't know if they will switch to the cheaper 3-cylinder WA-VE engine from Daihatsu, but it's a rather new engine and it will require investing in new production infrastructure.

 

[carguy420]

Thailand has lower excise tax rates for "eco cars" under 1300cc. In India the line is 1200cc. I don't think the base Vios will use the 1500cc 2NR but rather the 1200cc 3NR-FE. 1200cc is the sweetspot for most of SEA.

I don't know if they will switch to the cheaper 3-cylinder WA-VE engine from Daihatsu, but it's a rather new engine and it will require investing in new production infrastructure.

Yeah, the very base Vios will most likely still use a 1.2l engine in Thailand, just not sure which one. So far, only the base model Rocky and Raize in Indonesia is using the WA-VE engine. Recently saw a video on Instagram showing the workers at the Vios' assembly line in Indonesia, holding letters that say "SAYONARA VIOS", probably a sign that they are stopping production of the current gen and getting ready to start the new one. In Malaysia, the Vios has always only been available with a 1.5l engine, so I'm not familiar with the very base engine options available in other SEA countries. We also usually don't drive as slowly as some other SEA countries.

They might just carryover the NR engines for the petrol-only versions and you would have to buy the hybrid version to get a DF powertrain.

 

[larryren]

Greeting! here some news from China.
1. GAC Toyota Engine's WeChat account have post a the factory leaderships speech article for they worker skill competition. The local production line of NR series engine in GTE will discontinue next year. Foreshadowing GAC-Toyota will discontinue the Yaris L at the same time. But unclear Tianjin's FAW Toyota Engine will follow the southern partner shutdown the whole series engine production or will keeping producting 9NR 1.2T using for Corolla and Levin.
(BTW: 4/5NR made by TFTE, 6/7NR is made by GTE, bothside are 1.3/1.5L NA version using in XP150 series Vios/Yaris L twins in China)


2. The S20A with ChDM Highlander/Crown Kluger WLTC fuel consumption are post it in Chinese MIIT Equipment Industry Development Center's website.
As screenshot said S20A is had 8.74L/100km with WLTC test combine the RDE. (convert it 26.9US MPG or 11.44km/L) compare with last gen 2.0T 8AR less 1.2L/100km in same test rules. GAC-Toyota comfirm the "380T Highlander" debut in 10 Aug. local time.

 

[JustADude]

Greeting! here some news from China.
1. GAC Toyota Engine's WeChat account have post a the factory leaderships speech article for they worker skill competition. The local production line of NR series engine in GTE will discontinue next year. Foreshadowing GAC-Toyota will discontinue the Yaris L at the same time. But unclear Tianjin's FAW Toyota Engine will follow the southern partner shutdown the whole series engine production or will keeping producting 9NR 1.2T using for Corolla and Levin.
(BTW: 4/5NR made by TFTE, 6/7NR is made by GTE, bothside are 1.3/1.5L NA version using in XP150 series Vios/Yaris L twins in China)


2. The S20A with ChDM Highlander/Crown Kluger WLTC fuel consumption are post it in Chinese MIIT Equipment Industry Development Center's website.
As screenshot said S20A is had 8.74L/100km with WLTC test combine the RDE. (convert it 26.9US MPG or 11.44km/L) compare with last gen 2.0T 8AR less 1.2L/100km in same test rules. GAC-Toyota comfirm the "380T Highlander" debut in 10 Aug. local time.


View attachment 6216View attachment 6217

That could be because of the detuned 8ar maybe

 

[larryren]

That could be because of the detuned 8ar maybe

I have check the 20inch wheel high trim Lexus RX300 in Lexus China website (high tuned 8AR and 4WD). it show 9.48L/100km.
Gen.3 and Gen.4 Highlander 2.0T are also 4WD trim.

 

[carguy420]

Greeting! here some news from China.
1. GAC Toyota Engine's WeChat account have post a the factory leaderships speech article for they worker skill competition. The local production line of NR series engine in GTE will discontinue next year. Foreshadowing GAC-Toyota will discontinue the Yaris L at the same time. But unclear Tianjin's FAW Toyota Engine will follow the southern partner shutdown the whole series engine production or will keeping producting 9NR 1.2T using for Corolla and Levin.
(BTW: 4/5NR made by TFTE, 6/7NR is made by GTE, bothside are 1.3/1.5L NA version using in XP150 series Vios/Yaris L twins in China)


2. The S20A with ChDM Highlander/Crown Kluger WLTC fuel consumption are post it in Chinese MIIT Equipment Industry Development Center's website.
As screenshot said S20A is had 8.74L/100km with WLTC test combine the RDE. (convert it 26.9US MPG or 11.44km/L) compare with last gen 2.0T 8AR less 1.2L/100km in same test rules. GAC-Toyota comfirm the "380T Highlander" debut in 10 Aug. local time.


View attachment 6216View attachment 6217

Is the S20A a China only engine? Would be nice if it is available in other markets that heavily tax cars with engine that are bigger than 2.0L.

 

[larryren]

Is the S20A a China only engine? Would be nice if it is available in other markets that heavily tax cars with engine that are bigger than 2.0L.

Temporary "YES".
Because no more info or rumor say S20A will fit more vehicle except ChDM Highlander twins now. I guess it will fitting next Gen. Camry/RAV4? or making a performance version engine or pair with THS like they license GAC make more powerful mid-range hybrid system instead A25 Series.

 

[Levi]

Is the S20A a China only engine? Would be nice if it is available in other markets that heavily tax cars with engine that are bigger than 2.0L.

Like Italy for example.

 

[ssun30]

GAC said this engine is imported so it's made in Japan. It only makes sense to put this engine in some international market products. TMC's insistence on natural aspiration makes them uncompetitive tax-wise in many markets.

 

[spwolf]

Like Italy for example.

obviously not, as they will get hit by average co2 rules... nothing but hybrids for anything bigger in Western Europe.

 

[larryren]

Little bit more info from GAC-Toyota's website. They introducing S20A said "center fuel inject system" and "twin-scroll turbocharger". And in debut video said maximum thermal efficient is 36% and 11.0 compress ratio. So S20A have some technical spec share with T24A. But still unknown the bore and stroke more like M20 or A25/T24.

 

[ssun30]

Weird, that's lower peak thermal efficiency than both 8AR (36.5%) and V35 (37%).

 

[carguy420]

The 1.2L engine in the new gen Vios/Yaris Ativ for Thailand is still the 3NR, they somehow manage to squeeze out an extra 2PS and 1NM , now at "blistering" 94PS and 110NM 😂. The hybrid version would probably be using the M15A hybrid. Zero idea on what engine the petrol/gasoline only 1.5L would be running, it either could be the carryover 2NR or the M15A.

 

[ssun30]

The GAC Trumpchi GS8 hybrid get some excellent reviews in real world tests. GAC did an incredible job by combining the off-the-shelf Blue Nexus P810 solution and an indigenous engine and got a much better system than Toyota's own A25+P810 solution. I never got the chance to actually drive one so I would like to hear my Chinese friends on their thoughts on this product.

The GS8 2WD got ~6.4-6.6L/100km in combined real world driving. In a similar cycle tested by the same outlet, the Highlander Hybrid E-Four got ~6.6L/100km for 2WD and ~7.0L/100km for AWD. It's safe to say the two systems are almost identical in terms of fuel efficiency.

0-100km/h takes only 6.9s. That's much faster than Highlander Hybrid with similar weight and power (8.4s). This is a very high achievement ratio (I calculated 0.625 compared to 0.528 for NX300h and 0.522 for Highlander Hybrid).

The engine codename is 4B20J2. It is a 2.0L turbocharged Inline-4 Miller-cycle engine with a peak thermal efficiency of 40%. Power is 1kW lower than Highlander's A25 but torque is 34% higher. Like the A25 it takes 92RON (87AKI) regular fuel.

The biggest advantage of the 2.0T combination is vastly improved NVH since peak torque is not only higher but available at only 1500rpm. While the A25 needs to rev to over 4000rpm under heavy acceleration, the 4B20J2 stays below 2000rpm. Almost all reviews noted this powertrain is considerably more refined than Toyota's 350h system and is more appropriate for a luxury car.

At the beginning, Toyota engineers recommended against using an unproven turbocharged engine (typical for them) with THS, so to convince them, GAC tested the powertrain under the same standards as Toyota and it turned out to be reliable. The performance and NVH metrics impressed Toyota so much they want something similar (hints at a future S20A-FTS + P810 combination?). From an old Chinese idiom, this is "cyan comes from blue but is greater than blue".

 

[spwolf]

Toyota claims their new turbo engine has 33% (S20A) thermal efficiency, so it seems if reviews are true, GAC simply has a lot better powertrain than Toyota. Additionally, it is as reliable as Toyota atkinson cycle engine - which means a lot more reliable than S20A.

So basically, if all the above is true, GAC has much better powertrains than Toyota, and Toyota should look into licensing it.

p.s. I dont think most of it is true, lol.

 

[ssun30]

S20A is 37% not 33%. And I have no idea how you get to the conclusion it's more reliable than the S20A.

So if you can't get the basic fact and logic right, whatever you say.