Lexus Future Product & Powertrain Megathread (II)

NXracer

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Haha all of sudden every car magazine, Youtube Lexus/Toyota Channels have become very very interested in "interpreting" those Lexus/Toyota EV Day concept cars.....especially after "HQ confidential" when everyone with any common sense has been shouting from the tree tops that every single concept has a meaning.

I guess they handed out goodie bags filled with common sense during the media event to help calm the FUD thats been spreading on social media automotive section.
 

NXracer

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This is the LC namesake returning to the states. However it seems to be targeting the bronco "sport" crowd with alot of offroad tech.

I wonder whether Toyota will have enough of a flame suit on with the "UNIBODY IS INFERIOR TO BOF OFFROAD" crowd that squaks at every offroad trail...
 

ssun30

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In PodCast 30 a great point was brought up: there is currently a hole between the 350h and 450h+ powertrain. The 246hp 2.5L THS-large is inadequate for RX/Highlander/Sienna which are close to 2 tons. Currently there is a 265hp 400h+ system but that's FWD only and plug-in hybrid with low volume.

Also recently the 250h 2.0L THS-medium was updated from 178hp to 197hp with higher output ICE and batteries. What's interesting is only the FWD variant received the high output ICE while the AWD has the old ICE but larger E-Four motor. It's a natural step to combine the high output ICE with E-Four to create a 210-220hp 300h system for next-gen UX. Maybe that's the reason UX did not receive the new powertrain.

With this update the old 2.5L THS-medium is no longer needed, and cars that use it (Camry/RAV4/Harrier/ES) should upgrade to the 240hp 350h system for next generation. This leaves an opportunity to offer a 400h system for larger cars like RX/Highlander/Sienna/Crown and potentially a UX FSP. I think it makes sense to downsize the 500h single motor system with 2.0T S20-FTS engine and smaller E-Four motor instead of eAxle. Output will be down from 367hp/550N.m front/165N.m rear to 280hp/450N.m front/120N.m rear. Another possibility is 350h getting the eAxle and larger battery with similar output.

I think a new 2025 hybrid (transverse) lineup could be like this:

2.0L 250h FWD 197hp
2.0L 300h AWD 220hp
2.5L 350h FWD/AWD 245hp
2.0T 400h AWD 280hp
2.5L 400h+ FWD 270hp
2.5L 450h+ AWD 310hp
2.4T 500h AWD 370hp
2.4T 550h+ AWD 400hp
 

Will1991

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Also recently the 250h 2.0L THS-medium was updated from 178hp to 197hp with higher output ICE and batteries. What's interesting is only the FWD variant received the high output ICE while the AWD has the old ICE but larger E-Four motor. It's a natural step to combine the high output ICE with E-Four to create a 210-220hp 300h system for next-gen UX. Maybe that's the reason UX did not receive the new powertrain.

With this update the old 2.5L THS-medium is no longer needed, and cars that use it (Camry/RAV4/Harrier/ES) should upgrade to the 240hp 350h system for next generation. This leaves an opportunity to offer a 400h system for larger cars like RX/Highlander/Sienna/Crown and potentially a UX FSP.

If a 2UX does happens, my bet is on a BEV-only powertrain.

The 2023MY is the facelift so a 2UX is going to happen maybe by 2025 like a 2026MY, and with a 6-year life cycle it would mean it would be on sale until 2032… Considering Lexus is going BEV-only by 2030 in Europe, it must be BEV only.
 

qtb007

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In PodCast 30 a great point was brought up: there is currently a hole between the 350h and 450h+ powertrain. The 246hp 2.5L THS-large is inadequate for RX/Highlander/Sienna which are close to 2 tons. Currently there is a 265hp 400h+ system but that's FWD only and plug-in hybrid with low volume.

Also recently the 250h 2.0L THS-medium was updated from 178hp to 197hp with higher output ICE and batteries. What's interesting is only the FWD variant received the high output ICE while the AWD has the old ICE but larger E-Four motor. It's a natural step to combine the high output ICE with E-Four to create a 210-220hp 300h system for next-gen UX. Maybe that's the reason UX did not receive the new powertrain.

With this update the old 2.5L THS-medium is no longer needed, and cars that use it (Camry/RAV4/Harrier/ES) should upgrade to the 240hp 350h system for next generation. This leaves an opportunity to offer a 400h system for larger cars like RX/Highlander/Sienna/Crown and potentially a UX FSP. I think it makes sense to downsize the 500h single motor system with 2.0T S20-FTS engine and smaller E-Four motor instead of eAxle. Output will be down from 367hp/550N.m front/165N.m rear to 280hp/450N.m front/120N.m rear. Another possibility is 350h getting the eAxle and larger battery with similar output.

I think a new 2025 hybrid (transverse) lineup could be like this:

2.0L 250h FWD 197hp
2.0L 300h AWD 220hp
2.5L 350h FWD/AWD 245hp
2.0T 400h AWD 280hp
2.5L 400h+ FWD 270hp
2.5L 450h+ AWD 310hp
2.4T 500h AWD 370hp
2.4T 550h+ AWD 400hp
Wouldn't they be more likely to up the output of the 2.5L THS-large? As far as I'm aware, the A25 in the hybrid is still a lower output than the A25 in the non-hybrid. Do the higher output engine with fifth generation hybrid and we're at 270hp.

JMO, but the Highlander hybrid and the Sienna are fine with the current hybrid drivetrain as far as performance. The gas mileage is great and they felt no slower than my Corolla hatch 2.0L w/ 6MT out on the road. The NVH is the worst part about that pairing.
 

ssun30

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Wouldn't they be more likely to up the output of the 2.5L THS-large? As far as I'm aware, the A25 in the hybrid is still a lower output than the A25 in the non-hybrid. Do the higher output engine with fifth generation hybrid and we're at 270hp.

JMO, but the Highlander hybrid and the Sienna are fine with the current hybrid drivetrain as far as performance. The gas mileage is great and they felt no slower than my Corolla hatch 2.0L w/ 6MT out on the road. The NVH is the worst part about that pairing.
The bad NVH is the result of A25 being undersized for the application. It needs to work extra hard to drive a 2 ton vehicle. It needs to rev up to 4600rpm to reach peak torque.

In China GAC licensed the THS large system but replaced the ICE with a 2.0T, and it has better NVH thanks to broader torque curve.
 

larryren

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The bad NVH is the result of A25 being undersized for the application. It needs to work extra hard to drive a 2 ton vehicle. It needs to rev up to 4600rpm to reach peak torque.

In China GAC licensed the THS large system but replaced the ICE with a 2.0T, and it has better NVH thanks to broader torque curve.
Some rumor said Toyota own are interested the performance of GAC's 2.0T combine the P810 system. Maybe can getting some experience for homemade S20 Series pair with tradtional Power-split system?
BTW I have test drived GAC 2nd Gen. GS8 hybrid 2WD last weekend at local dealership.... It feel more powerful at low-mid speed range because that 2L turbo engine combined. And also better ride quality than NX, especially the suspension tuning....NX more harder than GS8.
(The Lexus dealership is right next door to GAC, so it have same test drive route can make me compare it)
Y352.jpg
 
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NXracer

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Some rumor said Toyota own are interested the performance of GAC's 2.0T combine the P810 system. Maybe can getting some experience for homemade S20 Series pair with tradtional Power-split system?
BTW I have test drived GAC 2nd Gen. GS8 hybrid 2WD last weekend at local dealership.... It feel more powerful at low-mid speed range because that 2L turbo engine combined. And also better ride quality than NX, especially the suspension tuning....NX more harder than GS8.
(The Lexus dealership is right next door to GAC, so it have same test drive route can make me compare it)
View attachment 6027

Is this made with in tangent with the palisade or telluride or just a "coincidence" of the styling cues?
 

larryren

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Is this made with in tangent with the palisade or telluride or just a "coincidence" of the styling cues?
Well~ I knew it have such viewing point. Back to 2016, at Chinese network it have such like"copy the Telluride concept" discussion etc.
But GAC did not receipt of lawyer's letter by Kia. Maybe because Kia doesn't sell Telluride in China?:unsure:
And Kia mass-production version seem lot more different than concept car.)


So GAC keep that styling style for 2nd Gen. GS8 and debuted last year.
 

ssun30

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BestCar is reporting SSB in limited production BEV sports cars as early as 2026. I am skeptical as that's only 1 year after rumored SSB launch on hybrids in 2025.
 

ssun30

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Blue Nexus updated the "Single Speed Small" motor output from 90kW to 120kW. Peak wheel torque remained the same. The previous output level is too weak for a "small" EV that weighs 1400-1500kg.
chart_01.png

Also the BestCar rumor that IS EV will have a torque-vectoring rear motor seems plausible. The long cylindrical design shown on the Blue Nexus website looks very similar to the twin-motor torque-vectoring Taycan/eTron GT unit. My guess is either 80kWx2 (160kW) or 120kWx2 (240kW). So the top-line IS EV's output could be between 280kW/375hp (120+80x2) and 390kW/520hp (150+120x2). Knowing Toyota, I think 280kW is the safer bet.
img_05.pngmotorschematicsdual_2s.jpg
 

Will1991

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@ssun30 that high performance motor is only a 1-motor setup:

image.png


It's longer due to, similar to Taycan, having a 2-speed gearbox.

This current generation motors will be the norm until 2025, when the 2nd generation comes up:

image.png


If this is true, the IS showing up by 2025 signals it's going to have the 2nd generation motors.

We also see that this new "Single Speed Small" will go into production next year, maybe a compact/city car (Yaris sized BEV)?

With this picture above and something Lexus said in the past, that "Large Premium" is 800V system.
 

Will1991

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Those pictures are from Aisin Website, the reference about the 800V is from a interview (but I’m not recalling which one)

Also, we know from the BZ4X presentation that TMC is looking for a 30% energy efficiency improvement for next generation motors.
That, a better aerodynamics and lower weight should be enough to make the IS having a 600~700km range with the same battery pack found on the RZ450e.