Lexus Files Trademark for UX 300e in Europe

ssun30

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@ssun30 if Toyota wanted, Prime could be a lot faster... it uses 71hp from batteries in EV mode, right? While regular Prius uses something like 22hp from batteries? But they focus on MPG, not power so they dont combine the both for maximum acceleration.

The Prime's battery pack is capable of discharging at 80kW while the total motor output in EV mode is 71kW by combining the power from both MG1 (22kW) and MG2 (51kW) via a sprag clutch in the P710 transaxle. This operating mode is not available in hybrid mode which means MG1 cannot add power by draining the battery, serving only as the generator and engine speed regulator. The hybrid transaxle on the Prius is very optimized that components are almost sized to exactly match each other with pretty thin margins (outside of the inherent reliability margins, of course). This allows a very compact, lightweight, and efficient hybrid system at the cost of flexibility. There's very little power to gain (a few kW at most) from the extra battery power so they just rate the Prime the same as the regular Prius. The hybrid systems in the UX and the Camry, on the other hand, do have some healthy margins for more power capacity so they could get an uprating with a more powerful battery pack.

And no it has nothing to do with MPG. If anything having more power to the motors benefits MPG because it reduces the burden on the ICE.
 

spwolf

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And no it has nothing to do with MPG. If anything having more power to the motors benefits MPG because it reduces the burden on the ICE.

it has everything to do with MPG... it can not recover that much energy by braking so you would get less miles out of EV mode, and also PHEV mode would end up going into "limp" (pure hybrid) mode much sooner.
 

ssun30

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it has everything to do with MPG... it can not recover that much energy by braking so you would get less miles out of EV mode, and also PHEV mode would end up going into "limp" (pure hybrid) mode much sooner.

What you just said is nonsensical. I was referring to MPG in HV mode, and yet you somehow brought up 'less range in EV mode' and 'sooner into limp mode in PHV mode'; neither of these cases have anything to do with MPG. You picked the wrong word and it was an honest mistake so just stop trying to defend it. If you said 'if they had higher power rating in EV mode the car could have less range' and I would respectfully agree. But we were talking about the combined power rating in HV mode.
 

spwolf

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What you just said is nonsensical. I was referring to MPG in HV mode, and yet you somehow brought up 'less range in EV mode' and 'sooner into limp mode in PHV mode'; neither of these cases have anything to do with MPG. You picked the wrong word and it was an honest mistake so just stop trying to defend it. If you said 'if they had higher power rating in EV mode the car could have less range' and I would respectfully agree. But we were talking about the combined power rating in HV mode.

it has everything to do with mpg... if you spend electricity to accelerate, that you cant recover, then later on your gas engine will run more.
This is why current TMC hybrids never got more than 40ish hp from batteries, as they cant recover more and doing 60-70hp would make it disbalanced in regular hybrid mode.

This is why german phevs with 10 mile range were so silly to have 100 hp battery output in hybrid mode, and then later got 20 mpg max when that initial 10 miles got spent and they cant do hybrid mode properly anymore.

So all these times TMC has been carefully balancing energy consumption making sure they spend what they can recover, so drivers dont have "limp" mode or very poor mpg mode, where battery was spent on faster acceleration and then nothing is left so sometimes you have +70 electric hp and sometimes just 10, or sometimes your engine would run 45% but if you spent your energy on acceleration it would then run 75%.

Generally speaking, TMC hybrids were always so balanced that you dont feel the difference when battery is "full" or "empty" and that there is always enough energy recovered when braking and coasting/stopping to provide for the balanced experience.

Not sure if you ever actually owned a hybrid? It is easier to experience than explain.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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The first thought is a battery-electric vehicle (BEV), but the inclusion of ‘300’ muddies the waters.

No other BEV manufacturer outside of Tesla uses numbers to indicate power or performance. Instead, it is common practice to affix the letter ‘e’ to the plug-in hybrid version of existing models (e.g. Mercedes C350e, BMW 330e).
I'm honestly torn on whether the 300e denotes a plug-in hybrid a la Toyota Prius Prime or a full battery electric vehicle. Lexus' games with "arbitrary equivalency" numbers (as opposed to those that indicate actual engine displacement) started with their hybrid models (450h=3.5-liter hybrid, for example) and then moved to their turbocharged gasoline engines (300=2-liter turbo or 500=3.5-liter turbo), so a further move to PHEV or BEV powertrains is hardly surprising.

Chunichi Shimbun also claimed that first-year sales will be limited to Japan, China, and Europe...
Autoblog's commentary piece on the AutoGuide report notes that the UX 300e trademark was linked to Lexus and filed in Norway. That fact probably skews the speculation towards a battery electric vehicle. Note these excerpts from a Reuters report:

Almost a third of new cars sold in Norway last year were pure electric, a new world record as the country strives to end sales of fossil-fueled vehicles by 2025...

The independent Norwegian Road Federation (NRF) said on Wednesday that electric cars rose to 31.2 percent of all sales last year, from 20.8 percent in 2017 and just 5.5 percent in 2013, while sales of petrol and diesel cars plunged...

The sales figures consolidate Norway’s global lead in electric car sales per capita, part of an attempt by Western Europe’s biggest producer of oil and gas to transform to a greener economy.

The International Energy Agency (IEA), using a slightly different yardstick for electric vehicles that includes hybrids that can be plugged in, showed Norway’s share of such cars at 39 percent in 2017, far ahead of second-placed Iceland on 12 percent and Sweden on six percent.

By contrast, such electric cars had a 2.2 percent share in China in 2017 and 1.2 percent in the United States, IEA data show...

Sales of pure electric cars surged 40 percent to 46,092 in 2018 while sales of diesel models fell 28 percent, petrol cars were down 17 percent and hybrids that cannot be plugged in fell 20 percent...

Also worth noting is that, as of this writing, Toyota has yet to file a UX 300e trademark in the United States, confirming Chunichi Shimbun's contention that this model is not a high priority for North America.
 

internalaudit

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Hmmm. This thread (or maybe something else in my mind) got me thinking.

If most BEV components are warranted for eight years, wouldn't that cover the battery and the drive (motor) unit among other components?

If that's the case, I might just opt for a German BEV for our next car if Toyota/Lexus does not come up with any BEV offering by 2023.

With the Germans, most of the issues stem from the engine or transmission design (use of plastic being one that will degrade over age) anyway that were only covered by warranty for four or five years.
 

spwolf

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Hmmm. This thread (or maybe something else in my mind) got me thinking.

If most BEV components are warranted for eight years, wouldn't that cover the battery and the drive (motor) unit among other components?

If that's the case, I might just opt for a German BEV for our next car if Toyota/Lexus does not come up with any BEV offering by 2023.

With the Germans, most of the issues stem from the engine or transmission design (use of plastic being one that will degrade over age) anyway that were only covered by warranty for four or five years.

TMC should have plenty of BEVs and PHEVs by 2023... question is will it be in your market and also will it fulfil your expectations.
 

internalaudit

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We all know China will be first and foremost. If they're not going to be available in North America, then it doesn't really matter. I will definitely be willing to try out the German makes since most of their issues are around design of their engines anyway.

And if I'm happy with them, it's going to be hard to turn around and embrace TMC when it does offer BEVs a little too late.
 

shizhi

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The “UX300e” is also registered in China。
And there is plan for ftms(一汽丰田)。FTMS will have annual production of 120k “”New energy vehicle” in a few years later。
Include 66k PHEV izoa,44K PHEV avalon,and 10K EV izoa。
500_ChsEf1wpFm2ATiIAAACEk90lQlY868.jpg
 

spwolf

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The “UX300e” is also registered in China。
And there is plan for ftms(一汽丰田)。FTMS will have annual production of 120k “”New energy vehicle” in a few years later。
Include 66k PHEV izoa,44K PHEV avalon,and 10K EV izoa。
View attachment 3102

good find, thank you... so phev seems pretty serious with the volume, that is significant volume, is that per year or some total? Because 76k of Izoa/CHR would be more than current FAW Toyota production for Izoa 2.0l? It would make sense if PHEV actually referred to a hybrid version, and usually new energy vehicles in China include hybrids?
 

shizhi

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good find, thank you... so phev seems pretty serious with the volume, that is significant volume, is that per year or some total? Because 76k of Izoa/CHR would be more than current FAW Toyota production for Izoa 2.0l? It would make sense if PHEV actually referred to a hybrid version, and usually new energy vehicles in China include hybrids?
per year.
In China,“New energy vehicle” includes PHEV, EV, FCV, REEV (EREV),except HEV.
And,GAC also have a similar plan ,the number increase to 200k, but no more information leak out.
But,in china,you must produce “New energy vehicle” sevral years late.
Because chinese government have a policy called "Double score", selling “New energy vehicle”,you will get positive score.and traditional cars will get negative score.
If the annual total score is negative,the enterprise will have to spend money to buy "positive score" from other enterprise,or gov will give a fine.
 

Will1991

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The “UX300e” is also registered in China。
And there is plan for ftms(一汽丰田)。FTMS will have annual production of 120k “”New energy vehicle” in a few years later。
Include 66k PHEV izoa,44K PHEV avalon,and 10K EV izoa。
View attachment 3102

Do you know what's the last column from 280B stating 1.6? Is it for UX-BEV?
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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It is not just China (and Europe)... TMC/Mazda new factory in Alabama is going to build EV model in 2021.
Are you sure about that? I know Mazda hasn't publicly identified what crossover it will build alongside the Corolla in Alabama, but the rumor I've seen is a new-generation CX-7 to slot in between the current CX-5 and CX-9. I know that Mazda is planning a couple of electrified models (including one with a revived rotary engine as a range extender akin to the 2-cylinder motorcycle engine BMW uses on some versions of the i3), but I was under the impression that those would be built in Japan.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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44K PHEV Avalon
This is what I find most intriguing and surprising. Is Toyota really planning a PHEV Avalon, an Avalon Prime, if you will? If so, would this be a China-only thing? If it would also be offered in North America, would Prime PHEV versions of other TNGA-K and Lexus GA-K models (especially the Avalon's close cousin the Lexus ES) follow?
 

shizhi

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Do you know what's the last column from 280B stating 1.6? Is it for UX-BEV?
16K is 2.0L N/A izoa,but the number is not correct now time。before produce avalon,the number is 100k。
then,it will be 48k 2.0L izoa,20k 2.5L avalon,32k 2.5Hev avalon。
this year late,when 2.0L avalon come out,the number will be 16 k 2.0L izoa,32K 2.0L avalon。
and this number is only for FAW new No.1 product line。there is total 3 line in factory。
izoa may produce in other line。
and toyota have no plan to produce Lexus in china at least next 5 years。
 

shizhi

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This is what I find most intriguing and surprising. Is Toyota really planning a PHEV Avalon, an Avalon Prime, if you will? If so, would this be a China-only thing? If it would also be offered in North America, would Prime PHEV versions of other TNGA-K and Lexus GA-K models (especially the Avalon's close cousin the Lexus ES) follow?
this chart is from a file。
the file is“天津一汽丰田车有限公司 泰达工厂12万新能源车项目 环境影响报告书”
(Tianjin FAW Toyota Motor Co., Ltd. TEDA Plant 120,000 New Energy Vehicle Project Environmental Impact Report)
the file is from teda government website,pdf page No.50.
http://att.teda.gov.cn/hjbhj/upload/files/2018/11/23132629221.pdf
i don't know toyota usa's plan.
but i am sure in china ,gac will produce phev camry and CHR.(gac have a similar project to produce 200k New Energy Vehicle per year)
 

ssun30

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good find, thank you... so phev seems pretty serious with the volume, that is significant volume, is that per year or some total? Because 76k of Izoa/CHR would be more than current FAW Toyota production for Izoa 2.0l? It would make sense if PHEV actually referred to a hybrid version, and usually new energy vehicles in China include hybrids?

The numbers are added onto existing capacities, so the 2.0L Izoa/C-HR won't disappear overnight when the PHV gets introduced.

Makes sense for them to skip the regular hybrid because PHEVs count towards Double Credit while hybrids don't.

This is what I find most intriguing and surprising. Is Toyota really planning a PHEV Avalon, an Avalon Prime, if you will? If so, would this be a China-only thing? If it would also be offered in North America, would Prime PHEV versions of other TNGA-K and Lexus GA-K models (especially the Avalon's close cousin the Lexus ES) follow?

I find this very interesting as well, since it's counter-intuitive that their 2nd PHV after the Izoa/C-HR is not the RAV4.

Also, there is no mention of the regular HV Avalon in that table. I may need some research on the subject when I had the time.
16K is 2.0L N/A izoa,but the number is not correct now time。before produce avalon,the number is 100k。
then,it will be 48k 2.0L izoa,20k 2.5L avalon,32k 2.5Hev avalon。
this year late,when 2.0L avalon come out,the number will be 16 k 2.0L izoa,32K 2.0L avalon。
and this number is only for FAW new No.1 product line。there is total 3 line in factory。
izoa may produce in other line。
and toyota have no plan to produce Lexus in china at least next 5 years。

Is the 2.0L Avalon with M20A engine confirmed for 2020?
 

shizhi

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The numbers are added onto existing capacities, so the 2.0L Izoa/C-HR won't disappear overnight when the PHV gets introduced.

Makes sense for them to skip the regular hybrid because PHEVs count towards Double Credit while hybrids don't.



I find this very interesting as well, since it's counter-intuitive that their 2nd PHV after the Izoa/C-HR is not the RAV4.

Also, there is no mention of the regular HV Avalon in that table. I may need some research on the subject when I had the time.


Is the 2.0L Avalon with M20A engine confirmed for 2020?
October this year(2019.10), and engine code is m20c(produce by gac engine like 6ar)