Lexus ES Sedan to Debut World's First Digital Side Mirrors

Gecko

Expert
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
2,472
Reaction score
4,592
What happens when NX in 2 years has a lot more luxury and tech than Rav4 does next year? That is going to be 5 years of NX having a lot more features and tech.
We can wait and see. If Camry/Avalon/ES are any indication, the differences between the two will be mostly cosmetic. I assume NX will have a larger engine option, which it should.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
1,995
We can wait and see. If Camry/Avalon/ES are any indication, the differences between the two will be mostly cosmetic. I assume NX will have a larger engine option, which it should.
You dont think NX had any advantages over current Rav4?
I can also see a lot of advantages of UX vs CHR, depite CHR being a good car.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
1,995
^All of this just speaks to poor product planning. Period.
engineers don't work every 3 years.

LS also introduced latest LSS.

Audi also introduced sideview mirrors on e-tron, which is Q5 variation and not on A8. Well, theirs won't be on sales for another year.
 

Gecko

Expert
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
2,472
Reaction score
4,592
You dont think NX had any advantages over current Rav4?
I can also see a lot of advantages of UX vs CHR, depite CHR being a good car.
Not really. It has more power, but is also 600lbs heavier, so the performance difference is not substantial. Nicer interior trim, generally higher quality interior, but is any of that worth $15k? Rav4 also has substantially larger interior, which is a design decision - but for same sized vehicle, I'd prefer to have more interior space.

UX is nicer than C-HR IMO, significantly. The shape is more user friendly (larger rear doors) and the interior is significantly nicer.
 

Gecko

Expert
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
2,472
Reaction score
4,592
engineers don't work every 3 years.

LS also introduced latest LSS.

Audi also introduced sideview mirrors on e-tron, which is Q5 variation and not on A8. Well, theirs wont be on sales for another year.
The entire last decade at Toyota/Lexus was spent propping up old models/tech/platforms as a stop gap to prepare for TNGA, and then only recently rolling out TNGA models and technologies. There has been plenty of development time, not only for models but also for individual technologies and options. Thanks to folks like Carmaker1, we are well aware of lead times for cars like LS. LC program launched in 2012 after LF-LC. Looking at spy photos and other media outlets, we can get an idea of how long many other models take to bring to market.

As an example, ToMoCo would have been working on things like CarPlay/Alexa integration and DTV AWD for YEARS before inception. So you cannot tell me Avalon debuted in January and LS went on sale in February, and CarPlay and Alexa couldn't have been integrated into LS. If they had to bump LS introduction out to April to include CarPlay and Alexa, they should have done it. Disclaimer: I don't even like CarPlay and have used it many times. I think it is an overrated and overhyped system. But after 10 years without a new LS, and Lexus being fully aware of the complaints around Remote Touch, they should have strategically rolled out CarPlay and Alexa on the LS FIRST. Why? Because of the media reviews and because of the perception that the LS is the "crown jewel" of Toyota, as it once was, and because this should be the type of technology buyers expect on an LS.

I have made this point many times over the years, but Lexus does not understand that you have one opportunity to make a first impression. They historically rolled out a car as an apparent starting point and then shortly after, make significant changes to engines, transmissions and equipment after the initial media buzz is over. The TNGA era is the first time we've seen (mostly) new engines and platforms married together at launch, and the reason for that is most of the legacy hardware was so OLD it couldn't debut in new vehicles, except for the 2GR-FKS and 8AT. I understand that innovation, especially with powertrains, is gradual and sometimes all of the pieces don't come together at the same time. But ToMoCo had plenty of time to "reset" and make sure that the right pieces rolled out at the right time, and what we've seen so far seems "Toyota-first" and Lexus as an afterthought.

So, back to my original point: Lexus' product planning sucks, plain and simple. But I really don't know if it's even Lexus' fault for being ignorant or if Toyota is starving the brand of their latest and greatest tech/features because THEY are so behind the ball that, to your point, they're just trying to roll things out as fast as they can. But that doesn't make it right.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
1,995
Not really. It has more power, but is also 600lbs heavier, so the performance difference is not substantial. Nicer interior trim, generally higher quality interior, but is any of that worth $15k? Rav4 also has substantially larger interior, which is a design decision - but for same sized vehicle, I'd prefer to have more interior space.

UX is nicer than C-HR IMO, significantly. The shape is more user friendly (larger rear doors) and the interior is significantly nicer.
Well, not everyone is a luxury car buyer. Otherwise Toyota would only be able to sell Lexus vehicles.

Obviously it matters if interior is nicer or if sound proofing is better or if suspension is better.

I would have never bought current Rav4, it is simply not good enough luxury wise car... it is large appliance.

NX isnt.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
1,995
As an example, ToMoCo would have been working on things like CarPlay/Alexa integration and DTV AWD for YEARS before inception. So you cannot tell me Avalon debuted in January and LS went on sale in February, and CarPlay and Alexa couldn't have been integrated into LS. If they had to bump LS introduction out to April to include CarPlay and Alexa, they should have done it. Disclaimer: I don't even like CarPlay and have used it many times.
so basically bump LS for 6-8 months to wait for CarPlay?

Bump it for a year or 18 months to wait for new DTV?

What else should they bump it for?
 

Gecko

Expert
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
2,472
Reaction score
4,592
Well, not everyone is a luxury car buyer. Otherwise Toyota would only be able to sell Lexus vehicles.

Obviously it matters if interior is nicer or if sound proofing is better or if suspension is better.

I would have never bought current Rav4, it is simply not good enough luxury wise car... it is large appliance.

NX isnt.
I don't really understand your post?

The problem for Lexus is that they don't exist in a vacuum where the only comparison is to Toyota. They compete with manufacturers who are building significantly more sophisticated, high-tech, powerful and luxurious vehicles for similar prices.


Furthermore, since Lexus lost the sales crown, we started out blaming the Japanese tsunami and then production constraints, recall woes, and then we blamed the fact that the Germans have A3, 2 series, CLA, etc.

Reality is that S class outsells LS, 5 series/E Class outsell GS, C class and 3 series outsell IS, GLC/X3/Q5 outsell NX, and the list goes on. ES is positioned as a cut rate value product and the RX created the segment it owns, so those two models have unique advantages - but I am not taking credit away from them for Lexus' smart product positioning.

However, we're years past all of the excuses that we had before about why Lexus is behind in sales, and since then, consumers have spoken and voted with their wallets. The proof is there. Audi continues to gain - the question is, how long until they are #3 in USA and Lexus is #4?
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
1,995
I don't really understand your post?
My point was that if you do not see the difference between current NX and Rav4, that is fine. Not everyone is luxury car buyer.

Current Rav4 is appliance. It's value is measured by price/space ratio.

NX is not that. Luxury cars do not have to be spacious. They dont have to be rational. It is ok not to be able to target everyone.

Long past is the time where Lexus was only appliance. I know it is not easy for US fans, as US car buyers do think a lot about space/price ratio.

But Lexus sales are constantly growing worldwide because of their change of thinking.

And besides, you mentioned Audi... but Audi does not introduce all the tech in new A8, not at all. A8 is almost not important vehicle for them. It sells poorly and LS outsells it easily. A7 is not close to the luxury of LC.

So not sure what does that sales talk have to do with digital sideview mirror that Lexus introduced in ES and Audi in e-Tron (Q5).
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
2,045
Reaction score
1,995
By that thinking, I guess MB is doing the best, they are waiting for all this tech for next S class, it does not matter that ES and Rav4 had more tech years before it :)
 

Gecko

Expert
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
2,472
Reaction score
4,592
so basically bump LS for 6-8 months to wait for CarPlay?

Bump it for a year or 18 months to wait for new DTV?

What else should they bump it for?
You are choosing not to see the points about development timelines and product planning between Toyota and Lexus, and would rather counter with extreme "YEAH? SO?" discussions. We are going downhill here.

So at this point, perhaps they should just scrap LS and come out with ES L. Is that good? Oh wait, ES already has more interior room than LS. And it has digital side mirrors! :p
 

Ian Schmidt

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,418
Reaction score
2,301
You are choosing not to see the points about development timelines and product planning between Toyota and Lexus, and would rather counter with extreme "YEAH? SO?" discussions. We are going downhill here.
But he does have an important point. CarPlay wasn't ready when LS500 launched. Should they have waited until it was ready, and then delayed it again until calendar year 2019 because Android Auto is apparently coming? The thing with these tech rollouts on cars is that they're getting into the same place computers have been for years: there IS no good time to upgrade because new stuff's always 3 months off.
 

bogglo

Follower
Messages
232
Reaction score
261
I think i read somewhere in this forum that doing this stuff gives them the chance to iron out glitches and problems that may arise during the first roll out. So by the time its in a car like the LS, its almost perfect with little to no issues. A good example is the UX interior what they added where the touch-pad is. that could have been in the ES but IMO they probably have it in the UX to get a feed a back. The other example will be the touch screen that is supposed to go in the refresh RX (if the video about the Lexus product planning is to be believed.)
 

Berto3818

Fan
Messages
171
Reaction score
73
I think this looks awesome and Glad they are coming out with it now. It does seem however that everything from a execution perspective for the ES is working better than it did for the debut of the LS. The biggest thing that stuck out on the LS is the touchpad controller but I haven't heard one bad thing about it with the new ES. I would have to agree they could have done a better job getting the LS message ready before it's debut. It seems everything related to the ES is going off without a issue. IMO...

R,

Markus
 

GSCT

Admirer
Founding Member
Messages
246
Reaction score
323
I would not spend my own money to buy:
ES over Camry
GS over Camry
RX over Highlander
NX over 2019 Rav4
LX over Land Cruiser
RC over Supra
Well, I have to say it’s your money and your choice, but I happily spend my money on Lexus despite platform sharing because I think the style, luxury, amenities, performance, dealership experience etc. are worth the premium.
 

maiaramdan

Admirer
Messages
827
Reaction score
594
@Gecko , @Carmaker1 & @spwolf

Honestly I keep reading and watching all your debate in total silence because I was worried from 2014 I keep posting that there's something wrong in TMC intersection

I was the first to say that LEXUS has only 1 of 3 routes

Either full lineup as the German 3

Or Luxury sport lineup as Jaguar/Porsche/Maserati

Or the third will be another Acura/Infiniti/Lincoln/Cadillac

And then I believed and I still believing that the Luxury sport lineup model is the way they should go

They need to kill the CT and make the new corolla fit&finish/material as if the corolla is the new generation of the CT

Same need to be with the ES/Avalon, NX/RAV4 & RX/Highlander

Merging all the BOF they have under both Toyota & Lexus in a new brand and let it be LandCruiser brand

Stay faithful to the 3 main cars category with 3 bodies for every category and that's it sedan / Coupe / RWD based crossover instead of BOF

LS / LC / LX (full sized)
GS / GC / GX (executive)
IS / IC / IX (small)

And stuck to this formula forever , they will then gain a lot of momentum by pushing themselves to this model a niche but with affordable price

Now they are failed in the full lineup model and they are starting to be taking ***/USA luxury failed model
 
Messages
10
Reaction score
15
@Gecko , @Carmaker1 & @spwolf

Honestly I keep reading and watching all your debate in total silence because I was worried from 2014 I keep posting that there's something wrong in TMC intersection

I was the first to say that LEXUS has only 1 of 3 routes

Either full lineup as the German 3

Or Luxury sport lineup as Jaguar/Porsche/Maserati

Or the third will be another Acura/Infiniti/Lincoln/Cadillac

And then I believed and I still believing that the Luxury sport lineup model is the way they should go

They need to kill the CT and make the new corolla fit&finish/material as if the corolla is the new generation of the CT

Same need to be with the ES/Avalon, NX/RAV4 & RX/Highlander

Merging all the BOF they have under both Toyota & Lexus in a new brand and let it be LandCruiser brand

Stay faithful to the 3 main cars category with 3 bodies for every category and that's it sedan / Coupe / RWD based crossover instead of BOF

LS / LC / LX (full sized)
GS / GC / GX (executive)
IS / IC / IX (small)

And stuck to this formula forever , they will then gain a lot of momentum by pushing themselves to this model a niche but with affordable price

Now they are failed in the full lineup model and they are starting to be taking ***/USA luxury failed model
Pretty off topic for this thread but...

I would argue that Cadillac belongs in the luxury sports lineup. The CTS, ATS, CT6, and their respective V models, all reviewed very well. Reviewers said that they were the best driving cars in their class. And yet the models that keep Cadillac afloat are the Escalade, the XTS, the XT5, all models which platform share with other GM products, while their sports sedans that all the reviewers absolutely love languish with negligible sales. I think if nothing else Cadillac proves that people look for a lot more in a luxury car than just a sporty drive.

Why should Lexus throw their one main competitive advantage away, their catalogue of proven Toyota platforms they can share with, just to please a small group of elitists who want Lexus to be another German manufacturer? How are Lexus going to come up with completely bespoke platforms for all their cars, somehow keep costs affordable like you want, and still make money by the end of it?
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,107
Reaction score
1,948
^^Why abandon a business model that worked and start clean sheet doing a copy of others? And never forget Lexus is a global brand, it needs every single product you wanted to kill to succeed in the global market. I want to see the LS and LC dead because at this point they are white elephant projects that didn't execute well to gain prestige to the brand. But it would be absolutely disastrous if they did what *I* think is reasonable.

Of course, we can always invent 'alternate history' lineups that pretend the Bubble never bursted. But that's completely irrelevant to the ES getting a digital rear view mirror. I don't see how we got there.
 

F1 Silver Arrows

Follower
Messages
423
Reaction score
614
^^Why abandon a business model that worked and start clean sheet doing a copy of others? And never forget Lexus is a global brand, it needs every single product you wanted to kill to succeed in the global market. I want to see the LS and LC dead because at this point they are white elephant projects that didn't execute well to gain prestige to the brand. But it would be absolutely disastrous if they did what *I* think is reasonable.

Of course, we can always invent 'alternate history' lineups that pretend the Bubble never bursted. But that's completely irrelevant to the ES getting a digital rear view mirror. I don't see how we got there.
Will close this up, but if the LS dies out of all the cars in their lineup, I actually cannot believe I would say this, but... well... Lexus would be dead to me. And they would be dead overall. Chasing sales (by abusing the ES and RX to death) won't save them forever when they have a sh*tty image as a luxury car company by killing off the one who started it all. By doing this you're no better than Acura. In fact, I would get a RLX Sport Hybrid to be spiteful.

I be very frank I never thought we would even FATHOM of talking about something like this. It's like saying Lamborghini losing the V12, BMW killing off the 3 series, Rolls-Royce killing off the Phantom or Mercedes-Benz never having an S-Class again. These are topics that never exist. The fact that just one of us even uttered something like this IS CRYSTAL CLEAR that Lexus is genuinely f*cking this up. Sorry. That's the sad truth.
 
Top