Lexus Considers Hybrid & Full Electric Powertrains for Next-Gen Performance Models

[ssun30]

It keeps getting more exciting in battery tech. With the current Primearth JV they are closing the gap in PHV battery tech; the new 10.5kWh pack should be coming soon. This new JV for BEV battery tech basically debunks previous rumors that early Toyota BEVs will have 'industry-trailing' battery tech. Panasonic is the golden standard here.

 

[spwolf]

Actually, both the Nikkei Asian Review link Flexus posted above and an earlier Nikkei story from December 2017 specifically state that Panasonic and Toyota will jointly collaborate on, research and explore solid state batteries, albeit, possibly, in a separate agreement.

Panasonic consolidating all of their battery production (except for Tesla) into JV with Toyota probably means that they are preparing for next gen batteries.

Also, article mentions that batteries will be 50x larger than current hybrids, that means for phev's mostly, thats around 40-50kwh.

Another thing mentioned in Panasonic comments was that Toyota has access to natural resources - for those that dont follow these kinds of news, Toyota has been purchasing stakes in lithium ore mines for last 8-9 years. I am pretty sure they are only manufacturer with direct access to those, especially non-Chinese one.

And it stands to be repeated, that Toyota has been investing into battery research for past 13 years, they probably have largest battery research program in the world, in collabration with the largest Japanese universities.

So all of it is part of a large plan started long, long time ago.


Then yesterday I read in some European paper how Toyota is lagging behind VW in electrification... what? PR's are wonderful thing.

 

[internalaudit]

Please give us the IS AWD BEV right after the UX BEV, Toyota?

I can't (and definitely won't) afford the performance version of the IS BEV though if it's like $80k CAD ($60k USD) but I'll take an entry-level IS AWD BEV anytime Toyota.

 

[Will1991]

It keeps getting more exciting in battery tech. With the current Primearth JV they are closing the gap in PHV battery tech; the new 10.5kWh pack should be coming soon. This new JV for BEV battery tech basically debunks previous rumors that early Toyota BEVs will have 'industry-trailing' battery tech. Panasonic is the golden standard here.

Are you aware of size for this new battery? Is it similar to the Prime's one? If it's the same size is quite a good improvement!

Panasonic consolidating all of their battery production (except for Tesla) into JV with Toyota probably means that they are preparing for next gen batteries.

Also, article mentions that batteries will be 50x larger than current hybrids, that means for phev's mostly, thats around 40-50kwh.

Another thing mentioned in Panasonic comments was that Toyota has access to natural resources - for those that dont follow these kinds of news, Toyota has been purchasing stakes in lithium ore mines for last 8-9 years. I am pretty sure they are only manufacturer with direct access to those, especially non-Chinese one.

And it stands to be repeated, that Toyota has been investing into battery research for past 13 years, they probably have largest battery research program in the world, in collabration with the largest Japanese universities.

So all of it is part of a large plan started long, long time ago.


Then yesterday I read in some European paper how Toyota is lagging behind VW in electrification... what? PR's are wonderful thing.

This report is very good news, but how will Panasonic manage this Tesla vs Toyota battery tech? Not knowing all of the details, there should be some kind of patents for Tesla and another tech for Toyota, maybe Tesla's cylindrical and Toyota's prismatic?

With something like 40-50 kWh battery it should be a pure BEV (see something like Leaf/Ioniq)... PHEV's as far as my opinion goes everything above 10-15kWh is getting too much surplus of weight.

Also, with this report it also shows clear evidence Toyota is getting ready as soon as they sold all of their Tesla shares with little information getting out!

Please give us the IS AWD BEV right after the UX BEV, Toyota?

I can't (and definitely won't) afford the performance version of the IS BEV though if it's like $80k CAD ($60k USD) but I'll take an entry-level IS AWD BEV anytime Toyota.

In the happy event of a IS BEV, we can clearly set Tesla Model 3 as a standard as it's the main competition. If it's less powerful and has less range it's going to be cheaper. They can only ask for a premium if they make it as good as Tesla Model 3.

Hopefully, Lexus will also do a 2nd gen CT as a BEV, as some rumors had previously stated

 

[internalaudit]

In the happy event of a IS BEV, we can clearly set Tesla Model 3 as a standard as it's the main competition. If it's less powerful and has less range it's going to be cheaper. They can only ask for a premium if they make it as good as Tesla Model 3.

Hopefully, Lexus will also do a 2nd gen CT as a BEV, as some rumors had previously stated

Even if it's priced like the Model 3 based on driving range, I'm good, especially if there is some discount and lower financing rates. My household's major constraint is needing to travel 140 miles once a week (hopefully also during winter time) but I think I am ready to settle for slightly less and just take our other ICEV if the Lexus IS BEV comes about by 2023.

We get LSS+ for free, unlike the $5k USD for Tesla's AEP. There's also discount off MSRP.

I have no need for the SCN or charging stations until the one at home dies and I will not need to charge for more than a few days, maximum.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Actually, both the Nikkei Asian Review link Flexus posted above and an earlier Nikkei story from December 2017 specifically state that Panasonic and Toyota will jointly collaborate on, research and explore solid state batteries, albeit, possibly, in a separate agreement.

Panasonic consolidating all of their battery production (except for Tesla) into JV with Toyota probably means that they are preparing for next gen batteries.

The Toyota Global Newsroom has issued the official news release announcing the "establishment of a new company (joint venture) related to the automotive prismatic battery business" between Panasonic and Toyota. Among the highlights:

Main points of the agreements

• Toyota and Panasonic will establish a joint venture (pending approval from the competition-law authorities in the countries and regions concerned) by the end of 2020.
• The ratio of equity participation in the joint venture will be 51 percent for Toyota and 49 percent for Panasonic.
• The scope of the joint venture's business operations will cover research, development, production engineering, manufacturing, procurement, order receipt, and management related to automotive prismatic lithium-ion batteries, solid-state batteries, and next-generation batteries.
• Products produced by the joint venture will be sold to various automakers through, in principle, Panasonic.

Toyota and Panasonic are confident that the contracts concluded today will further strengthen and accelerate their actions toward achieving competitive batteries.

The joint venture will integrate management and other resources from both companies, fusing strengths of both Toyota and Panasonic. Toyota is to contribute: 1) know-how and market data related to electrified vehicles, 2) advanced technologies related to solid-state batteries and more, and 3) Toyota-style manufacturing capabilities (monozukuri); while Panasonic, demonstrating its strengths as a battery manufacturer, is to contribute: 1) technologies related to high-capacity and high-output batteries that are high-quality and extremely safe, 2) mass-production technologies, and 3) a customer base both in Japan and overseas. In this way, the joint venture aims to become the leader in battery-development and battery-manufacturing capabilities.

Specifically, for the joint venture to become the leader in battery-development capability, Toyota and Panasonic intend to coordinate with each other from the vehicle planning and conception stage, and promote the acceleration of high-capacity and high-output battery development. For the joint venture to become the leader in battery-manufacturing capability, Toyota and Panasonic intend to share with each other their production-engineering resources and monozukuri know-how...

We have high expectations for the new company, including―as we aim to deliver ever-better electrified vehicles to even more customers―its role in fulfilling our plans for the popularization of electrified vehicles* (including achieving Toyota annual global sales of more than 5.5 million units of electrified vehicles), which we announced at the end of 2017."

https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/corporate/26302587.html

Something this announcement doesn't clarify is how this relates to the existing Primearth EV joint venture between Toyota and Panasonic. Is this an expansion of Primearth? A replacement? A totally separate entity with little or no effect on Primearth?

 

[spwolf]

@Joaquin Ruhi primearth was purchased by Toyota few years ago, as much as I remember.

 

[Will1991]

This one puzzled me... Is this some kind of indication regarding 2020's BEV's as possible being solid state?

As LiON is currently used for Prime and some HV's, there is some hope the way I see it...

This reference for next-gen batteries after solid state... Maybe Toyota is far ahead, more than it currently shows and that's good news!

 

[Ian Schmidt]

We get LSS+ for free, unlike the $5k USD for Tesla's AEP. There's also discount off MSRP.

Also any Lexus BEV is immediately going to be more luxurious than the Model 3. The plastics in the M3 interior are super nasty.

 

[spwolf]

@ssun30 full article from nikkei:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Bu...-into-electric-car-race-with-Panasonic-tie-up

Although China's Contemporary Amperex Technology surpassed Panasonic to become the world's top shipper of lithium ion car batteries by volume in 2017, the Japanese company still remains No. 2. Rivals in Japan like NEC, meanwhile, have pulled out of the battery business due to tight margins. Panasonic has built up mass production techniques by supplying batteries to Toyota for hybrids and to Tesla for electric cars.

Toyota also plans to develop next-generation solid-state batteries that improve range, among other technologies. "Panasonic is a step ahead" of Chinese and South Korean upstarts in high-capacity batteries that increase travel distance

In addition to seven technology partners, including Mazda Motor, Suzuki Motor and Subaru, Toyota is also trying to persuade Honda Motor to buy the new joint venture's batteries. The automaker will also pitch Western rivals

All of Panasonic's Japanese plants producing square prismatic batteries will be placed under the joint venture, including its main factory in Hyogo Prefecture. A Chinese factory in the city of Dalian that began shipments in March last year will also operate under the joint venture.

But even businesses involving Tesla are lagging in profitability. The battery segment's profit forecast for the current financial year was cut by 7 billion yen in October, to 22.1 billion yen.

 

[ssun30]

This one puzzled me... Is this some kind of indication regarding 2020's BEV's as possible being solid state?

No. Solid state won't be ready until mid-2020s. It's not mature enough for 2020 introduction yet. There's still a lot to get from liquid electrolyte Li-ion batteries so they will remain in use for at least five more years.

Something this announcement doesn't clarify is how this relates to the existing Primearth EV joint venture between Toyota and Panasonic. Is this an expansion of Primearth? A replacement? A totally separate entity with little or no effect on Primearth?

Primearth will remain as a separate identity and focus on batteries for HVs and PHVs. This new JV is for BEV batteries only.

 

[spwolf]

Primearth will remain as a separate identity and focus on batteries for HVs and PHVs. This new JV is for BEV batteries only.

not sure that is the case... primearth focused on hybrid battery production, first nimh and then lion but not phevs... they were sourcing prime battery from panasonic only. And Toyota purchased more of the JV in 2010 so are now 80% owner:
https://www.wardsauto.com/engines/primearth-says-toyota-eyes-us-battery-plant

Not sure how will they balance this Primearth vs new JV since one is 80% vs 51% for other. This is why one of the Panasonic execs told newspapers that some of them were worried about transfer of technology, as you know Panasonic has best lion batteries right now and they probably did this JV because of the Toyota's solid state and other upcoming research proving marketable.

But lets say 5 years from now, i guess Primearth will have to "license" solid state tech from new JV?

 

[ssun30]

But lets say 5 years from now, i guess Primearth will have to "license" solid state tech from new JV?

HV/PHV battery tech are quite different from BEV. There isn't even guarantee solid state will be used in PHV batteries at this point. Solid state gets higher energy density at the expense of power density so it suits BEV more than PHV.

Are you aware of size for this new battery? Is it similar to the Prime's one? If it's the same size is quite a good improvement!

The Corolla PHV is 100kg heavier than the Corolla HV. Some of the weight goes into the extra power electronics for the extra power and onboard charging, and the PHV is more loaded in the interior as well. The NiMH packs weighs about 45kg while the Prime's pack weighs 120kg. So I would say the new pack shouldn't be much heavier than the existing one.

 

[internalaudit]

HV/PHV battery tech are quite different from BEV. There isn't even guarantee solid state will be used in PHV batteries at this point. Solid state gets higher energy density at the expense of power density so it suits BEV more than PHV.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a little bit lost.

higher energy density > more driving range / distance traveled compared to a similar li-on battery volume?
power density > more power compared to a similar li-on battery volume?

Why do HVs and PHVs required more power density while BEV require higher energy density?

 

[ssun30]

Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a little bit lost.

higher energy density > more driving range / distance traveled compared to a similar li-on battery volume?
power density > more power compared to a similar li-on battery volume?

Why do HVs and PHVs required more power density while BEV require higher energy density?

One important metric of a traction battery design is the "C-rate", which measures the rate at which the battery can be charged/discharged relative to its capacity. It's a reciprocal value so a "1C" battery will discharge its entire capacity in 1 hour, while a "10C" battery discharges in 1/10 hour or 6 minutes. It is also the ratio of (the numerical value of) power to capacity. So a 1C battery with 60 kWh will have 60 kW power while a 20C battery with 1 kWh will have 20 kW. Now you see why HV/PHV/BEV battery designs are all different:

For an example, a HV may only have a 1.5 kWh battery pack but requires 30 kW of power, so it needs a "20C" design. A PHV may have a 10 kWh pack but needs 80 kW requiring an "8C" design. Finally, a BEV may have a 60 kWh pack with 120 kW requiring a "2C" design. The rule is that you cannot have a battery that has both high power density and high energy density at the same time, so there is always a compromise to be made. The highest C-rate batteries are those used on LMP1 race cars, which I think have close to 50C (they can discharge their entire reservoir in less than a minute).

So the reason why PHV batteries have high power density is that they have low capacity, thus necessitating higher C-rates to make the car drivable. The consensus in the industry is 15-20 kWh and 80-120 kW power from the battery pack to cover most people's commute everywhere in the world. The reason why BEV batteries have high energy density is obvious: electricity is the only prime mover so they need to squeeze in as much capacity as possible. Of course, nobody says you can't build a PHV battery using BEV cells, but then you get a car with less than 50 hp: it is not going to climb out of an underground parking lot.

You may have noticed there is a caveat here: since most BEV batteries are 2-3C, they will take at least 20-30 minutes to charge even in an ideal setting, and that is unlikely to change in the next decade. Those "1 minute" or "5 minute" chargers the media make so much fuss about are completely impractical and will destroy any BEV's battery after a dozen cycles and are a huge safety concern as well. These ultra fast chargers are only useful for PHVs that can sustain much higher charge/discharge rates.

 

[ssun30]

Back to the topic of hybrid performance models. The more I think about it the more I doubt how they are going to build a hybrid LC-F. There is just no good option on the table.

 

[spwolf]

Back to the topic of hybrid performance models. The more I think about it the more I doubt how they are going to build a hybrid LC-F. There is just no good option on the table.

yeah, i dont think they are seriously thinking about it... i think what they are thinking is being less conservative with max battery output in their hybrids.