Lexus Autonomous Driving Megathread

Discussion in 'Lexus Lounge' started by krew, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. krew
    krew Administrator
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  2. Ian Schmidt
    Ian Schmidt Staff Member Moderator
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    That's a huge improvement in the looks of the autonomy hardware, and I imagine more will be possible in that department when the car is actually designed around that equipment instead of having it added on later.
     
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  3. Levi
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    Makes it hard to believe that Tesla or other Germans can be autonomous without all this hardware. Google cars also have this much hardware.
     
  4. mikeavelli
    mikeavelli Staff Member Moderator
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    The last generation LS has aged so gracefully I think its timeless at this point..
     
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  5. Ian Schmidt
    Ian Schmidt Staff Member Moderator
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    Tesla's current hardware is much less than anyone (including Nvidia who supply the hardware) thinks you need for full autonomy, but the Musk Distortion Field is in full effect :) In particular, they aren't including any LIDAR, which is the centerpiece of every other manufacturer's system (including Toyota/Lexus). There are rumors that Tesla is switching to a new system internally with a lot more hardware now and owners will have to fork out several thousand to upgrade again, but I doubt it'll faze most of their fans.
     
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  6. Levi
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    I am an electric car fan, not an autonomous car fan, so thus still a Tesla liker.
     
  7. ssun30
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    The sleek looking Teslas and Audis are level 3 autonomy only. This testbed here is for level 4 and beyond. It's a quantum leap that requires a lot of breakthrough in sensor miniaturization.
     
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  8. Ian Schmidt
    Ian Schmidt Staff Member Moderator
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    No kidding. I saw a mint-condition 2LS on the road yesterday and it struck me how dated it looks now (those things were seriously boxy, the 3LS was a big improvement). And how not-dated my LS looks even though the basic design goes back more than halfway to when the 2LS was still being sold.
     
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  9. spwolf
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    Tesla is level 2 only... and even thats not fully working yet... did they enable auto wipers yet? I dont think so. It all went downhill once they ditched mobileye, I dont think their current system is as good as old mobileye yet... and they already change computers in newer vehicles, and there are rumors that they will do it again... for people who bought their after-Sept 2016 vehicles they claim they wont need new computers :).

    Upcoming A8 will be Level 3 later this year (date not known yet, but not at the same time as start of sales), but only for highway jams under 37mph... no curves, no city, no over 37mph... so basically they are gaming the SAE system.

    p.s. Do Toyota's in China have autobrake optional/standard?
     
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  10. krew
    krew Administrator
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  11. krew
    krew Administrator
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  12. Ian Schmidt
    Ian Schmidt Staff Member Moderator
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    It doesn't speak well to Uber's self-driving system that it failed at "brake to avoid a pedestrian", something any Camry will do now.
     
  13. krew
    krew Administrator
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    Toyota has suspended its autonomous prototypes after the Arizona incident:

    https://www.autoblog.com/2018/03/20/toyota-pauses-self-driving-car-testing-amid-uber-accident-probe/
     
  14. ssun30
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    Actually, now it seems the accident was unavoidable with any autonomous system or human intervention. A Camry won't be able to save that person. Nothing stops irresponsible pedestrians from jumping in front of a car out of darkness.

    Maybe except in China. Here in downtown Shanghai we have surveillance cameras with face recognition system that can actually ticket pedestrians and cyclers for traffic violation (fine and credit score penalties). Human rights issues aside, it makes driving in the city core much more pleasant since I no longer need to worry about a scooter running lights, or jaywalkers stalling the traffic because they have unjustified right-of-way.

    Manhattan also spies the heck out of its residents so a similar system could be implemented there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  15. spwolf
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    there is a video now, there is no jumping involved... just crossing a wide street in (relative) dark with bike in tow... system did not attempt to brake at any point, it is some kind of massive failure of the system and test driver was not watching the road.

    Pretty much any auto brake system would have attempted braking, especially one that has a radar, since radar actually works better in dark (like in Camry). But I think at these low speeds even cheap camera system would attempt do brake at some point, as evidenced by all the IIHS, EuroNCAP and JNCAP tests on those systems. Quite possibly it would not have stopped in cheaper system, but one in Camry should have perfectly stopped in front of the pedestrian at speed of 38 mph that they were driving at.

    Video:
    https://www.axios.com/uber-self-driving-crash-video-74e82f27-f802-4b6b-b4b2-d3885e12a145.html

    please notice it is disturbing since it shows a hit.

    Again, problem here is that everything fails, we all have computers and cell phones and they always have some problem... cars are recalled all the time, even if they are engineered at much higher standards.

    Partially the problem is likely that tech startups dont take all the necessary precautions and safety measures when developing new products... this we can see in our daily usage of tech... car companies are much slower to develop new things because they have a lot stricter standards.

    And it is all perfectly shown in this bad application of technology.

    Something to remember is that radar sees better at night than day, and lidar sees the same. So it makes no difference to the car hardware here if it is day or night and I would guess that despite bad camera, street was not badly lighted at all, we can see street lights around, it is just that the tester was looking around so he could not react either.
     
  16. ssun30
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  17. Levi
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    Well, the video is shocking, and blaming anyone (system or victim) is not the right thing. If anyone is to blame, it is not the system, not necessarily the engineers, but the 'blind believers'.

    The person was crossing a straight street, no curve, nothing was unpredictable (from what we see in the video). Radar/Lidar are supposed to see better than human and night in darkness, so in this case the system should have avoided the accident that a human would not, yet it failed.

    Some might blame the victim, and say it would happen with human driver, but isn't the point of the system to save the from bad human decision (of the victim)? Should the pedestrian be also be replaced by autonomous humanoid? If she is to be blamed, then she is whether there is a human or system driving, in which case what is wrong with accidents when then victim is at fault?

    Of course that changes when the crash of equivalent value, not car vs person but car vs car. There are many victims, those responsible (if you want to blame) and those not (of you want to take away blame, i.e the system in this case).

    What if the autonomous car worshipers, are the 'bad drivers', thus want such cars?
     
  18. spwolf
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    Uber is known to have "bad" leadership, and I mean that - you can read up on their fight vs lyft, corporate espionage and why was their past CEO ousted... it is comically do-evil corporation. (as side note I do use uber all the time, i love the service).

    So it is not hard to tie the dots here and see how these rumors of how pedestrian jumped in front of the vehicle, from the bushes, etc, etc, were paid by Uber. Anyone on the scene of crime, be it reported or cop, would see it is a wide street, no distraction, person was crossing from opposite side so no bushes, even the street lights were few meters away.
     
  19. spwolf
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    I think system failure will clearly be blamed as well as test driver.. here you can check how these affordable systems work:


    So the Volvo was going at 63kmh, and test above is 55kmh. I am sure factory Volvo system would do at least as good as Lexus one above, since it is already older version of Lexus/Toyota system and it is base/standard system too.

    So at very least, autonomous system has a lot more sensors and can react a lot faster. Both lidar and radar do the same or better in dark than light, so it is actually perfect situation for system to react, just like test above.

    System and test driver did not react even after a hit.
     
  20. Rob_LexusTech
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    okay ill add my $0.02 on autonomous driving bc as a LTS my job is always to stay on top of the latest and greatest.

    obviously, the end game here is to have self driving cars, and not just lexus, but the entire automotive industry for mass market consumers. i saw something recently i think, about a chevy spark w/o a steering wheel. the real question here is when will this actually be a real thing that cars have in well, anywhere usa. i think there are many different factors and topics on the subject, and personally i think we are maybe, maybe 10 years from roads full of cars that drive themselves. we have the technology to do this and we have for years. i think at this point, its more of an emotional/mental barrier that we as a species need to break down. radar/laser guided cruise control systems have been around 20 years, and truth be told i dont think it has come nearly as far as it could have by now, simply because of the mental barrier we hold deep in our minds subconsciously.

    i will say this. as an enthusiast, although i love the idea of being on a long highway cruise, pushing a button and letting the car do everything for me (lexus LSS+ comes damn close), i dread the day the steering wheel vanishes from our dashboards. many people these days consider driving a chore rather than recreation, regardless of what they are driving. i hear something to that tone atleast once a week from one of my guests, and honestly i dont blame them from thier point of view. if you have ever experienced Orlando rush hour traffic, you know what im talking about..