Hydrogen Powered BMW i8: The Future Of The Electric Car

[corradoMR2]

The first argument used by electric car naysayers is about range and recharge time: it’s nice that electric cars now have a range of 400 km (well, the Model S has), but if you have to stay at the same place for eight hours (average charging time on a 220 volt charger) before being able to drive again, it’s not very convenient.

BMW is currently trying to come up with a long-term solution; by partnering with Toyota, the German manufacturer is working on a hydrogen drivetrain. Its latest development in this domain is the i8 that you see in the above pictures. It is called BMW i8 hydrogen Concept.

It’s not the first time BMW has delved into this fuel source. About 10 years ago, they actually sold their science project, a V12-powered 7 Series that ran on either hydrogen or gasoline. The prototype shown here is based on one of the first i8 chassis developed, but has been fitted with a hydrogen tank, electric motors and batteries made by BMW. The fuel cell seems to come from Toyota, and was probably pilfered from a Mirai.

This particular prototype may never see the light of day, but BMW states that they intend to market a hydrogen vehicle before 2020. Chances are that the first vehicle to come out will be a 5 Series GT; it has a large trunk, which would be necessary to store a tank large enough to give the car a 500 km range.

http://www.guideautoweb.com/en/gall...owered-bmw-i8-the-future-of-the-electric-car/

 

[corradoMR2]

A sneak peek into the upcoming LS 600fc ? (I'm making up the 600 fc name for fuel cell ) I just hope we see the LS with this tech before BMW does since it's Toyota's tech...

 

[mikeavelli]

A sneak peek into the upcoming LS 600fc ? (I'm making up the 600 fc name for fuel cell ) I just hope we see the LS with this tech before BMW does since it's Toyota's tech...

During a conversation with some people at Lexus who asked me what would I do if I was there, I answered the BMW i8. Lexus was way ahead of hybrid tech and should have made a cool sports car. Its a great drive and BMW is onto something. Now BMW and the Germans are getting a ton of positive press since they are making all these hybrid sports/hyper cars where it seems people have forgotten Lexus created this tech 8 years ago.

 

[corradoMR2]

During a conversation with some people at Lexus who asked me what would I do if I was there, I answered the BMW i8. Lexus was way ahead of hybrid tech and should have made a cool sports car. Its a great drive and BMW is onto something. Now BMW and the Germans are getting a ton of positive press since they are making all these hybrid sports/hyper cars where it seems people have forgotten Lexus created this tech 8 years ago.

Yeah, Lexus pioneered this tech and where they fell short is waiting a little too long for the next leap. Hopefully the LS "fc" is the next big thing right around the corner and the next "BMW Supra" to elevate Toyota's performance stature as it was in the 90s.

Oh, and as much as Acura is ho hum the last 15 years, to your point, the NSX and hybrid power plant should help Acura get back some of its 90's mojo.

 

[mmcartalk]

I agree with the basic concept of fuel-cell hydrogen cars, but the main obstacle to them seems to be an adequate network of hydrogen-refilling stations. Although California is a little better-equipped for this than most other states (fuel-cell cars have been sold there for several years), there is probably still a long way to go even there. These cars typically need compressed-hydrogen refills at roughly 20,000 PSI, which you just are not going to find at most places.

Of course, then we also get back to the old question with hydrogen and some other alternate-fuel vehicles.......what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we build the hydrogen cars first, and then let the sales-numbers/patterns and market-demand for hydrogen-stations dictate where and how many stations will be built? Or, conversely, do we build the hydrogen stations FIRST, and then figure that, once they are built, the automakers will put hydrogen vehicles into mass production, knowing that if they do, that customers will be able to buy or lease these cars without refueling worries?

That, IMO, is an interesting question, and I think a good case can be made for each side. Also, of course, as more hydrogen cars are built and sold, the current high prices should start to come down from simple economies of scale.

 

[CIF]

Well Toyota already can claim the world's first production hydrogen vehicle.

World's first production hydrogen luxury vehicle, well Toyota (with Lexus) has a good chance at that too.

Just on the topic of the i8, admittedly it does have several drawbacks/issues, when watching or reading detailed reviews. It's not a slam-dunk, home-run vehicle. However much of the positive press has simply been thanks to BMW's monster marketing machine, more so than purely the qualities of the i8 itself IMHO.

 

[mmcartalk]

Well Toyota already can claim the world's first production hydrogen vehicle.

Wasn't that the Honda FCX? Or did Toyota have a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle in production before the FCX? There were none in the American market that I know of, but that doesn't preclude other countries, of course.

 

[CIF]

Wasn't that the Honda FCX? Or did Toyota have a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle in production before the FCX? There were none in the American market that I know of, but that doesn't preclude other countries, of course.

Just to clarify, the Mirai is the world's first mass-produced commercially available hydrogen vehicle. The FCX and FCX Clarity were not mass produced vehicles. Honda only leased a total of less than 50 in North America. The FCX was offered as a lease only, because really it was an experimental vehicle of sorts. It was a 3 year term, at a high price, with no other options. Leases were only offered in extremely limited areas of California.

Also notable is the FCX is out of production.

Toyota had a very similar program since 2002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FCHV

Basically Toyota had an experimental hydrogen Highlander since 2002 that they leased in very limited numbers in the US. They used that to help develop technology for the Mirai.

Toyota expects to sell several thousand Mirai worldwide over the next couple of years.

 

[mmcartalk]

Just to clarify, the Mirai is the world's first mass-produced commercially available hydrogen vehicle. The FCX and FCX Clarity were not mass produced vehicles. Honda only leased a total of less than 50 in North America. The FCX was offered as a lease only, because really it was an experimental vehicle of sorts. It was a 3 year term, at a high price, with no other options. Leases were only offered in extremely limited areas of California.

Also notable is the FCX is out of production.

Toyota had a very similar program since 2002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FCHV

Basically Toyota had an experimental hydrogen Highlander since 2002 that they leased in very limited numbers in the US. They used that to help develop technology for the Mirai.

Toyota expects to sell several thousand Mirai worldwide over the next couple of years.

OK...good response. I'll agree...only fifty FCXs is not much in the way of "production". And yes, they were only available in California....along with the natural-gas Honda Civic GX, although I did see one GX here locally in suburban MD (driven by the dealership's GM) when I went Honda-shopping with an ex-co-worker of mine.

 

[CIF]

Yup, the FCX really was no different in approach than Toyota's FCHV Highlander. Both experimental vehicles, definitely not production vehicles.

 

[CIF]

Also corradoMR2, if BMW came first to market with a luxury hydrogen vehicle, do you think BMW marketing would ever mention "powered by Toyota" ?

 

[mikeavelli]

Just to clarify, the Mirai is the world's first mass-produced commercially available hydrogen vehicle. The FCX and FCX Clarity were not mass produced vehicles. Honda only leased a total of less than 50 in North America. The FCX was offered as a lease only, because really it was an experimental vehicle of sorts. It was a 3 year term, at a high price, with no other options. Leases were only offered in extremely limited areas of California.

Also notable is the FCX is out of production.

Toyota had a very similar program since 2002: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_FCHV

Basically Toyota had an experimental hydrogen Highlander since 2002 that they leased in very limited numbers in the US. They used that to help develop technology for the Mirai.

Toyota expects to sell several thousand Mirai worldwide over the next couple of years.

Thanks for the clarification, I wasn't sure on this as well.

 

[CIF]

You're welcome .

 

[IS-SV]

And yes, they were only available in California....along with the natural-gas Honda Civic GX, although I did see one GX here locally in suburban MD (driven by the dealership's GM) when I went Honda-shopping with an ex-co-worker of mine.

Note: Honda Civic GX's (CNG/natural gas) are not California-only in this decade, being sold in 4 states, although they are seen mostly in California, Oregon and Utah. With annual sales of under 2000 units/year, Honda just announced it stopped production (April 2015). CNG infrastructure caters to fleet operators, where economics result in big savings (vs diesel). CNG availability for regular customers tends to be best around urban areas only.

 

[mmcartalk]

Note: Honda Civic GX's (CNG/natural gas) are not California-only in this decade, being sold in 4 states, although they are seen mostly in California, Oregon and Utah. With annual sales of under 2000 units/year, Honda just announced it stopped production (April 2015). CNG infrastructure caters to fleet operators, where economics result in big savings (vs diesel). CNG availability for regular customers tends to be best around urban areas only.

I haven't seen a Honda GX in this area for several years. One one I was refering to was one (not for sale) that I saw a few years ago at a local Honda shop here when I was shopping with an ex-co-worker for a new Civic. It belonged to (or at least was driven by) the dealerships's GM, who came out to greet us. He told us, at the time, that GX models were only sold in CA. Since then, as you note, they seem to have expanded to other states as well. He told me he filled it up at the local gas utility company.

(Oh, and BTW, our trip that afternoon turned out successful......my friend took home a brand new, dark blue Civic EX coupe that night)....leather, sunroof, top-line trim, etc.... Haven't seen him for a little while, but as far as I know, he still has it.

I'm all for alternate-fuel cars...including CNG, although natural gas is a non-renewable fossil fuel like petroleum, and is not necessarily the answer in itself to the dwindling supplies of crude oil. But, like propane and some other fossil-fuels like diesel oil, it provides at least a partial-alternative until the electric car and its demands for electricial-generation and/or compressed hydrogen can be really perfected and we have the infrastructure for it. That seems to be the #1 problem for most of these alternate rule cars now, except maybe for diesel....lack of a real infrastructure to support their refueling needs.

 

[IS-SV]

I haven't seen a Honda GX in this area for several years. One one I was refering to was one (not for sale) that I saw a few years ago at a local Honda shop here when I was shopping with an ex-co-worker for a new Civic. It belonged to (or at least was driven by) the dealerships's GM, who came out to greet us. He told us, at the time, that GX models were only sold in CA. Since then, as you note, they seem to have expanded to other states as well. He told me he filled it up at the local gas utility company.


I'm all for alternate-fuel cars...including CNG, although natural gas is a non-renewable fossil fuel like petroleum, and is not necessarily the answer in itself to the dwindling supplies of crude oil. But, like propane and some other fossil-fuels like diesel oil, it provides at least a partial-alternative until the electric car and its demands for electricial-generation and/or compressed hydrogen can be really perfected and we have the infrastructure for it. That seems to be the #1 problem for most of these alternate rule cars now, except maybe for diesel....lack of a real infrastructure to support their refueling needs.

July Honda Civic GX (CNG) sales were strong even though no longer in production at the Indiana plant. Only couple months inventory left. No other automaker does a production CNG car, only conversions. But fleet use of CNG in trucks is experiencing strong growth, infrastructure is better able to support their short haul local fleet use very well.

Btw- Diesel is not considered to be an alternate fuel or a clean fuel (not even close), therefore NA.

 

[mmcartalk]

Btw- Diesel is not considered to be an alternate fuel or a clean fuel (not even close), therefore NA.

Certainly. I agree with you that I wouldn't consider it an alternate fuel either, since it comes from petroleum/crude oil like gasoline. And it's not a particularly clean-burning fuel, in most cases (the small VW TDI diesels are an exception, which don't require urea) unless the urea solution is sprayed into the exhaust....or if you are burning some biofuels. But, for unclear or inexplicable reasons, some jurisdictions DO consider it to be an alternate fuel for tax-credits and/or things like HOV privileges. Go Figure.

 

[IS-SV]

Certainly. I agree with you that I wouldn't consider it an alternate fuel either, since it comes from petroleum/crude oil like gasoline. And it's not a particularly clean-burning fuel, in most cases (The small VW TDI diesels are an exception) unless the urea solution is sprayed into the exhaust....or if you are burning some biofuels. But, for unclear or inexplicable reasons, some jurisdictions DO consider it to be an alternate fuel for tax-credits and/or things like HOV privileges. Go Figure.

Diesel, NA.

TDI is not nearly as clean as alternate fuel vehicles. TDI is no "exception" and is not cleaner than the other CA compliant diesel cars being sold in 2015. It's just gets better MPG.

Not aware of any place giving HOV lane access to solo drivers w/diesel cars. I know the best established system in U.S. (CA) very well too. Let us know of jurisdiction giving solo HOV lane access mentioned please.