A V8 Lexus LFR May Have Been a Pipedream After All

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Nobody calls them GR, just Supra, 86, etc. GR is so after thought and sounds more like a sponsor on Toyota race cars.

What happened to TRD? The was even Lexus ISF TRD…

I always refer to them as GR, and so does almost every single other person on the internet. Anecdotal claims like yours claiming absolutes is silly.

The 86 was the previous generation to the GR86. Same with the GR Supra. Most people know the GR Supra as the A90, while if you were to just say "Supra", people will think to the A80. Even internet SEOs will back this up.

Also calling a GR Corolla or a GR Yaris as merely a Corolla or a Yaris is asinine and you know it.

GR is a very respected and well-known brand at this point, but unfortunately F was neglected as a result of GR's rise. What Toyota/Lexus has done to F is nothing short of a tragedy, but at the same time we can't tell ourselves that GR isn't taken seriously by people worldwide. With GR, Toyota is just about in every single major FIA and non-FIA motorsports series on the planet bar WRX which actually died in 2025.

I'm still unsure about GR being spun off into it's own brand, as I think TGR has a nice ring to it, but Lexus needed to have their own performance division, and robbing Lexus from their own motorsport division due to neglect is a genuine shame.

It looks like Lexus is not going to try to compete with the Germans anymore, they'll just create cash cows in market segments that they know they will dominate in, and not bother trying to compete in segments that they will come in second place in terms of sales figures. This mirrors a lot what the Chinese manufacturers are doing at this point, and while they do make some cool products, the vast majority of them are not memorable. What worries me about Toyota taking this direction is that in the far future, Toyota executives could just ask themselves, why not consolidate Lexus within Toyota, and have these "edgy" and "avantgarde" models be upper-level Toyotas instead as a way to retain Toyota's prestige as the premier Japanese manufacturer, and throwing away Lexus in the process? Their recent choices such as slowly eschewing the iconic Lexus logo and eliminating Lexus-specific models is a huge cause for concern.

I guess this is what the Toyota executives want...

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Nobody calls them GR, just Supra, 86, etc. GR is so after thought and sounds more like a sponsor on Toyota race cars.

What happened to TRD? There was even Lexus ISF TRD…

And there still is TRD for off-road in NA market.

TRD is probably being phased out (and for good reason tbh).

 

[Falcon]

In the GCC we refer to the Land Cruiser 300 GR Sport as simply.. GR. So GR is absolutely not associated with lower end Toyota products around the world lol.

Perhaps Lexus will have its own subdivision within GR. RR (rookie racing).

 

[Gor134]

Lol what? Lots of GR86 (and even BRZ owners) say "my GR86" same thing with GR Corolla owners.

 

[Gecko]

Ugh, tell me about it.

As well as the /cars subreddit.

I was told, and I quote, that I was "doing performance art" for suggesting that Lexus will NOT be getting more enthusiast-focused models despite their HQ/R&D moving Shimoyama alongside GR and Toyota.

I tried posting in there this week and suggested that the "Lexus LFR" was actually going to be the GR GT and got downvoted -28, called a lying troll by multiple people, and received a moderator warning.

There are a lot of interesting, different online Lexus communities but that was *wild*

 

[Gecko]

TRD is North America only and will only be for BOF US products like 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, and Sequoia. Somehow Japan decided TRD has enough brand equity to live on but F did not...

As such, you won't see a TRD PRO Land Cruiser, even our 250 model.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

TRD is North America only and will only be for BOF US products like 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, and Sequoia. Somehow Japan decided TRD has enough brand equity to live on but F did not...

As such, you won't see a TRD PRO Land Cruiser, even our 250 model.

Toyota North America made this decision, not Toyota Japan.

 

[Gecko]

TMS had to fight for it, Japan allowed it.

 

[CRSKTN]

Toyota North America made this decision, not Toyota Japan.

North American doesn't ultimately make any decisions for themselves, or Toyota or Lexus broadly.
Japan runs everything.

Japan literally has Japanese executives in the US shadowing their counterparts and being "shadow executives", actually making the calls.

NA has been dragging the Japanese along on stuff for 20+ years, and the ideas they go to market with tend to be some of the most compelling.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

North American doesn't ultimately make any decisions for themselves, or Toyota or Lexus broadly.
Japan runs everything.

Japan literally has Japanese executives in the US shadowing their counterparts and being "shadow executives", actually making the calls.

NA has been dragging the Japanese along on stuff for 20+ years, and the ideas they go to market with tend to be some of the most compelling.

Not really. North American have been making most of the calls for this market.

 

[b.ba]

Not really. North American have been making most of the calls for this market.

I'm not sure I recall times that has been the case. Can further elaboration be provided?

 

[DarkSpace6383]

I'm not sure I recall times that has been the case. Can further elaboration be provided?

It is a semi-independent subsidiary of Toyota Japan as per my knowledge

 

[DarkSpace6383]

TRD is North America only and will only be for BOF US products like 4Runner, Tacoma, Tundra, and Sequoia. Somehow Japan decided TRD has enough brand equity to live on but F did not...

As such, you won't see a TRD PRO Land Cruiser, even our 250 model.

I feel like the more I think about it, the more I realize that Lexus F isnt permanently dead, so I think you are right about the fact that Lexus should not kill of F. I feels like its being quite neglected right now, but they should not kill it off. They still have the LFR, and I think this may have been a trademark for the Lexus Concept unveiled at the Quail this August. It came out with a lexus badge. They wouldn't be doing that if they were going to change it to GR later. This probably means that there will be both a Gazoo Racing and a Lexus F Version coming out. In light of this and the new "LS" van thing I made an outline of what I believe Lexus should do with their top class of cars:

I think Lexus L Flagship line should have several vehicles:

1. LFR: Based on the sport concept unveiled at the Quail which WILL BE COMING. I think it should also come with a hybrid 6 or 8 cylinder engine in addition to the EV powertrain, and ideally around 1000 horsepower. I would also like it to race in GT3, maybe alongside the GR GT in something similar to the Lamborghini-Audi R8-Huracan situation that has been happening of the last 10 years.
2. LX/LXL: Make it a proper Range Rover, GLS, and Escalade Rival, rather than a defender rival. It should be gunning towards luxury. V6, possibly EV in the future aswell. This doesnt mean it has to lose that much offroad prowess, but it shouldnt be the main priority. The GX has gotten big enough to handle that domain.
3. LFX: Basically the LF1-Limitless concept with the same powertrains as the LFR, designed to compete against the Audi Q8, Porsche Cayenne, Range Rover Sport etc. V6, possibly EV in the future aswell.
4. LM/LMV: The upcoming van/minivan concept (though ideally with a better looking design). EV, maybe Hybrid?
5. LS: Not a traditional sedan, but something similar, kind of like the Audi Grand sphere concept. It could serve as something more executive idk. V6 maybe

Lexus L should be standing for the best of the best that Lexus has to offer. Century will be much higher, and then Gazoo Racing will be made as a pure performance brand. Lexus can offer similar levels of performance but be more upscale. This allows Lexus F to survive alongside the products from the new Gazoo Racing sub-brand.. I believe I had stated earlier that it may make sense to just consolidate everything into Gazoo Racing, however I have since changed my mind on this. F still has a place amongst Lexus Performance models, and in motorsport. I think the LFR could be the concept that Lexus released at the quail, and that GR GT thing could be the hardcore Gazoo Racing version, so there is hope!

As for motorsport I would love to see Lexus maybe join Formula E (fits the brand quite well, take a potential LFR GT3 to various championships as a cousin to the GR GT, and also as Toyota will be running hydrogen in the top class at WEC (Hypercar Class), maybe Lexus could take over the hybrid Hypercar program).

What are your thoughts?

 

[CRSKTN]

Not really. North American have been making most of the calls for this market.

This is an out and out falsehood.
Toyota North America and Lexus USA absolutely do not and have not been making calls for themselves, let alone "most of the calls" for their market and you have literally no evidence for it, because it doesn't exist. Anything they did get done was an absolute battle with Japan.

Toyota Japan does not allow autonomy like that.

 

[Gecko]

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are that I once believed like you do, but no longer do. Toyota's strategic management of Lexus over the last 15 years has been a long, slow decline with regard to the types of products you'd like to see and listed out. I'd like to see them too, but Akio decided that Century is the new focus for ultra luxury, and GR is his legacy for fun things, so that leaves Toyota as the mainstream brand and Lexus as Toyota+ to make room for Century and GR.

Lexus has been deprioritized to make room and resources for Century and GR - that is the simple truth.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

While you're right about the COVID impacts, I don't think that is the excuse here. The depth and breadth of Toyota's lineup has exploded over the last 7 years while Lexus has been stagnant and lost key models. The LF-1 would have been a platform/parts sharing exercise with the LS and LC, so most of what was needed to make it happen already existed, but Toyota chose to consolidate their resources and save their money by trying to upcycle FWD platforms like GA-K.

Toyota's own Century SUV - the crown jewel of the entire portfolio - is built on a FWD chassis with a 20 year old V6. If that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about Toyota right now, I'm not sure how else I can help. They didn't even put it on their most premium unibody platform - GA-L - or put their latest and greatest engine in it, the V35A-FTS.

Toyota's leadership in Japan lives in a vacuum where all of the roads have a 35mph speed limit and they all think that because they engineered it, it's the best product in its class. Toyota execs would do well to spend time in America and Europe, and drive the latest Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Bentley, and Cadillac products. It's clear they have no idea what is really going on and are incredibly ignorant and shortsighted.

I have a theory that the Century and GR GT may very well fail here and in other global markets. It's almost like there was a specific reason why Toyota created Lexus, and spent 36 years building a luxury brand...

The GR GT will definitely be fine. I am unsure about century. It will take a while but I think it could eventually become decent.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

My thoughts are that I once believed like you do, but no longer do. Toyota's strategic management of Lexus over the last 15 years has been a long, slow decline with regard to the types of products you'd like to see and listed out. I'd like to see them too, but Akio decided that Century is the new focus for ultra luxury, and GR is his legacy for fun things, so that leaves Toyota as the mainstream brand and Lexus as Toyota+ to make room for Century and GR.

Lexus has been deprioritized to make room and resources for Century and GR - that is the simple truth.

My concept is absolutely just possible but wishful. I feel like this could work even with the new brand plan. The thing about century is that its a Maybach and Rolls Royce rival. Its not intended to rival BMW and Porsche. For that we have Lexus. That is what it should be for. The GR Products should just be purely hardcore race-derived products. Lexus and GR could always just have different versions. For example the GR brand will have the next supra. We could see the Lexus variant exist with a 2+2 layout rather than the strict 2 seater (it has already been rumoured in best car magazine, which tends to be very accurate) and should feature a 3.5L V6. Similarly the Lexus LFR and GR GT could just be similar to the audi r8 lamborghini huracan concept. There are ways for things to co-exist. I am supportive of Gazoo Racing being it's own brand from that regard. I was wondering what your thoughts were with my theoretical concept.

 

[Gecko]

My concept is absolutely just possible but wishful. I feel like this could work even with the new brand plan. The thing about century is that its a Maybach and Rolls Royce rival. Its not intended to rival BMW and Porsche. For that we have Lexus. That is what it should be for. The GR Products should just be purely hardcore race-derived products. Lexus and GR could always just have different versions. For example the GR brand will have the next supra. We could see the Lexus variant exist with a 2+2 layout rather than the strict 2 seater (it has already been rumoured in best car magazine, which tends to be very accurate) and should feature a 3.5L V6. Similarly the Lexus LFR and GR GT could just be similar to the audi r8 lamborghini huracan concept. There are ways for things to co-exist. I am supportive of Gazoo Racing being it's own brand from that regard. I was wondering what your thoughts were with my theoretical concept.

Got you. My .02 on what you laid out...

LFR: Not happening as a Lexus. I wish it was, it wasn't. It will be the GR GT and Lexus will get an electric sports car sometime closer to 2030.

LX/LX L: Agreed. I think the LX is not luxurious enough for what it costs -- needs a new center console and dash design, and no shiny black plastic on the interior. More powerful engine options would help here, and I agree with your idea of adding an L model.

LFX: I had this exact idea a while ago and agree... I think I called it LSX if they were going to do away with the LS. Whatever the name, I agree and think this is Lexus single biggest missed opportunity over the last decade.

LM/LMV: Not my cup of tea, but sure, why not?

LS: Agree with you here as well. My .02 is that the fifth gen LS should have always been the four door LC equivalent. The car was too compromised: stiff and sporty chassis, poor headroom, weak engine options, not luxurious enough, refreshes never hit like the first few years, etc. If Lexus turned it into a dramatic four door coupe with a gorgeous design and next level interior with V8/high power HEV V6 options, it would probably still be around. They built the fifth gen car for nobody, and it shows.

 

[DarkSpace6383]

Got you. My .02 on what you laid out...

LFR: Not happening as a Lexus. I wish it was, it wasn't. It will be the GR GT and Lexus will get an electric sports car sometime closer to 2030.

LX/LX L: Agreed. I think the LX is not luxurious enough for what it costs -- needs a new center console and dash design, and no shiny black plastic on the interior. More powerful engine options would help here, and I agree with your idea of adding an L model.

LFX: I had this exact idea a while ago and agree... I think I called it LSX if they were going to do away with the LS. Whatever the name, I agree and think this is Lexus single biggest missed opportunity over the last decade.

LM/LMV: Not my cup of tea, but sure, why not?

LS: Agree with you here as well. My .02 is that the fifth gen LS should have always been the four door LC equivalent. The car was too compromised: stiff and sporty chassis, poor headroom, weak engine options, not luxurious enough, refreshes never hit like the first few years, etc. If Lexus turned it into a dramatic four door coupe with a gorgeous design and next level interior with V8/high power HEV V6 options, it would probably still be around. They built the fifth gen car for nobody, and it shows.

I was talking to someone from the Lexus discord, and he told me that when he was watching the lexus racing team get interviewed at car week (q&a actually) they confirmed that Lexus will race a car in GT championships after the RCF GT3. Due to homologation regulations, this would imply a road version as well. Based on this I can only assume that a hybrid AND EV versions will come out. Furthermore, Akio has pioneered the idea that all the platforms developed will be EV first, but also allow for the fitting of a hybrid system. The smaller 4L v8 (vs the 5L in the rcf for example). Given this I think the LFR Hybrid is more likely than people think.

I agree with you on basically everything else!

 

[ssun30]

Furthermore, Akio has pioneered the idea that all the platforms developed will be EV first, but also allow for the fitting of a hybrid system. The smaller 4L v8 (vs the 5L in the rcf for example). Given this I think the LFR Hybrid is more likely than people think.

That is not true. He has never said anything about platforms being EV priority.

A new 4.0L V8TT will not be smaller than the 2UR-GSE. The Hot-V configuration will use a lot of space on top of the block. Every Hot-V 90-degree engine on the market uses more space than a traditional cold-V NA engine. The GR GT getting a hybrid system has nothing to do with engine bay packaging since the motor will be integrated into the rear transaxle.