2nd Generation Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ Thread

Gecko

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Until now, Toyota and Subaru have been mum on the prospect of a follow up to the Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ. Although both cars received mild refreshes and even milder power bumps, they're both essentially the same cars that hit the market nearly five years ago. It appears a successor is indeed on the way, as Autocar confirms that Toyota is developing a next-gen 86.

Karl Schlicht, executive vice-president at Toyota Motor Europe, said that the 86 will live on past the current generation. "The car serves a big purpose," Schlicht said. "We are not getting out of that business. Sporty cars go through their phases. It's our intention to continue with that car." Toyota seems to be back in the sports car business, as the company has partnered with BMW on a new Supra.

Like the current Toyota 86, it seems likely that the successor will be co-developed with Subaru. Schlicht says that to get the low center of gravity and the handling characteristics that come along with it, a horizontally opposed engine is a necessity. He admits that there is no firm confirmation of a commitment from Subaru.

While no Schlicht gave no details about the new car, he did nix any possibility of a convertible variant. "We wouldn't do it on the current model," he said. "That doesn't mean dealers wouldn't like one, but there are so many other priorities that I don't think we've got spare capacity for that."

Source: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/08/toyota-86-successor-next-generation/
 

Carmaker1

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Hmm, as a former owner of the BRZ (2013) and it being my first vehicle purchase ever, I must say that I can only wonder if they truly do intend to improve on the two. Also, how far along are they even? I have always known since about 2014-15, they'd launch a redesign in 2019 for MY2020. They seriously couldn't be starting now.

At this point, styling decisions have to be made and design engineers are stepping in to finalize aspects of it. I don't see anyhow otherwise, considering that the current model had a design freeze in spring 2010. I expect them to have that done ASAP, to ensure they have enough time and resources to make it perform much better.

Did any of you know, what was presumed to be the IS500 aka IS-F in 2005, was actually an early attempt at developing a RWD coupe for the Toyota brand? Development did begin in 2007, as prior to that Toyota was trying to go it alone, as seen with the Crown Royal mule.
 

CIF

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Hmm, as a former owner of the BRZ (2013) and it being my first vehicle purchase ever, I must say that I can only wonder if they truly do intend to improve on the two. Also, how far along are they even? I have always known since about 2014-15, they'd launch a redesign in 2019 for MY2020. They seriously couldn't be starting now.

At this point, styling decisions have to be made and design engineers are stepping in to finalize aspects of it. I don't see anyhow otherwise, considering that the current model had a design freeze in spring 2010. I expect them to have that done ASAP, to ensure they have enough time and resources to make it perform much better.

Did any of you know, what was presumed to be the IS500 aka IS-F in 2005, was actually an early attempt at developing a RWD coupe for the Toyota brand? Development did begin in 2007, as prior to that Toyota was trying to go it alone, as seen with the Crown Royal mule.
I hope they improve the styling, as IMHO it could be better. I've test driven the 86, it's a nice ride and quite fun, but the styling leaves me wanting more.

Ah yes, that spyshot is indeed interesting. I have heard stories that Toyota during the early-mid 2000s did initial testing for a RWD coupe on a stop-start basis. Yes actual development of the 86/BR-Z didn't start until 2007, and soon after we saw those unique test mules with Frankenstein Subaru bodies. I've also heard that for IS-F initial development, they used other mule bodies to hide testing.
 
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I don't think many folks were complaining about the looks of the Toyobaru as they were the amount of power under the hood, which is either just right for some folks, but not enough for others. Honestly, from a sales perspective, if it had more power perhaps the sales would be better than they have been. I also don't think its like just as an FR-S was doing it justice because the monospec restricted the trim levels unlike the BRZ, even if the FR-S has had higher sales than its Subie compatriot.
 
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mikeavelli

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Hmm, as a former owner of the BRZ (2013) and it being my first vehicle purchase ever, I must say that I can only wonder if they truly do intend to improve on the two. Also, how far along are they even? I have always known since about 2014-15, they'd launch a redesign in 2019 for MY2020. They seriously couldn't be starting now.

At this point, styling decisions have to be made and design engineers are stepping in to finalize aspects of it. I don't see anyhow otherwise, considering that the current model had a design freeze in spring 2010. I expect them to have that done ASAP, to ensure they have enough time and resources to make it perform much better.

Did any of you know, what was presumed to be the IS500 aka IS-F in 2005, was actually an early attempt at developing a RWD coupe for the Toyota brand? Development did begin in 2007, as prior to that Toyota was trying to go it alone, as seen with the Crown Royal mule.
Nice. I've alway been a fan of the car and always flirted wth it. Call me what you want but the Scion name didn't do much for me but it now being a Toyota is a positive. It drives sensational.

Last July I was honored to be a guide for Tada-San and Kishi-San here in Miami and we hung out quite a bit. I helped host a big FRS/BRZ meet and Toyota was pretty clear everyone was asking for more power or the ability to add more power. That seemed to be by far the #1 issue and it was obvious a second gen was OTW.

I think if it had a 300hp option, it would be mind blowing....hell a Sienna has 296hp :D
 

mmcartalk

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I don't think many folks were complaining about the looks of the Toyobaru as they were the amount of power under the hood, which is either just right for some folks, but not enough for others. Honestly, from a sales perspective, if it had more power perhaps the sales would be better than they have been. I also don't think its like just as an FR-S was doing it justice because the monospec restricted the trim levels unlike the BRZ, even if the FR-S has had higher sales than its Subie compatriot.
In a small sports car or sports coupe of this class, I'm not sure power is really that big an issue. The Mazda Miata, for example, has been a success from Day One, despite (almost) never having more than about 155-160 HP stock at most, though a few MazdaSpeed versions with a turbo were done. And HP without torque doesn't really do that much good for typical everyday driving conditions. The Honda S2000, for example, had a HP peak of roughly 240-250, and a torque peak well below that at around 150 ft-lbs., but both were at extremely high RPMs (8000 + and 7000+) that were simply impractical to rev to on every shift, unless you were on a track.
 
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In a small sports car or sports coupe of this class, I'm not sure power is really that big an issue. The Mazda Miata, for example, has been a success from Day One, despite (almost) never having more than about 155-160 HP stock at most, though a few MazdaSpeed versions with a turbo were done. And HP without torque doesn't really do that much good for typical everyday driving conditions. The Honda S2000, for example, had a HP peak of roughly 240-250, and a torque peak well below that at around 150 ft-lbs., but both were at extremely high RPMs (8000 + and 7000+) that were simply impractical to rev to on every shift, unless you were on a track.
Again, I think the power issue has affected its sales unfairly or not. It does not mean that the 86 is flawed, but American buyers have different expectations than say, those buyers in Japan/Asia, because the tuning philosophies are different (Americans emphasize power, Japan does balance). It gets compared to the Mustang rather easily because of the price. Many enthusiasts have said, if it had some more power, they would be driving a BRZ/86, because most if not all of the competing cars have more than 200hp and more practicality (which of course also affects the Miata).
 
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mmcartalk

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Again, I think the power issue has affected its sales unfairly or not. It does not mean that the 86 is flawed, but American buyers have different expectations than say, those buyers in Japan/Asia, because the tuning philosophies are different (Americans emphasize power, Japan does balance). It gets compared to the Mustang rather easily because of the price. Many enthusiasts have said, if it had some more power, they would be driving a BRZ/86, because most if not all of the competing cars have more than 200hp and more practicality (which of course also affects the Miata).
Have you test-driven either the Scion/Toyota or Subaru versions? When they first debuted, they were almost impossible to find in stock, especially unsold and available for a test-drive. Now, of course, the supply/demand situation for them is much different.
 
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Have you test-driven either the Scion/Toyota or Subaru versions? When they first debuted, they were almost impossible to find in stock, especially unsold and available for a test-drive. Now, of course, the supply/demand situation for them is much different.
I haven't...was going to at the auto show, but the line was way too long so I ended up driving the iM instead (this was last year, before Scion shut down shop). Yes, there was major hype the first year, and then sales went flatline. Should still try one at the dealer but it just hasn't been a priority of mine since I don't really see myself buying a 2-door as the next car. I don't even bug my BRZ owning friend to drive his.
 

oem_is300

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I'm a huge fan of the FR-S/BRZ/86 and see it as a potential next car of mine. A lot of people over at ft86club seem skeptical about this article mainly because rumors like this have been flowing for a few years, and there doesn't really seem to be a particular interview they are talking about. That being said, the possibility of a next generation is really exciting for me as I want to see the platform continue to evolve.

Having spent a decent amount of time driving one (roommate in college had an FR-S and let me drive it all the time), I never had a problem with the amount of power the car put out. I also wasn't expecting Mustang V8 horsepower though. A little bit more power would be nice to see, but I think it is just as much about usable power. A lot of complaints stem around the "flat spot" in the torque curve between I believe 3500-5500rpm. I haven't had a chance to drive a revised 86 with the updated +5hp, but more importantly the rear end change from 4.1 to 4.3 which I've read has improved driving feel in the mid-range.

In the end I think Toyota knows this won't be a volume seller. There will be people that get its supposed to be a lightweight car more about driving feel (sounds similar to how Lexus pitches their performance cars) than outright numbers on a spec sheet. I hope they continue that formula into a next generation
 
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The fact now it is a Toyota and not Scion anymore has improved its chances to sell better, though the packaging of the car now that it isn't 'monospec' better be improved since the BRZ with its trim levels (Premium and Limited) to me is the more desirable of the two to buy.
 

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For MY17 the 86 is still monospec. I am hoping they bring over a 'GTS' spec though because those added features in the Limited BRZ are nice (new info screen in dash, pushbutton start, and the auto climate control mainly for me). The BRZ now also offers a performance package which adds brembo brakes and different wheels.
 

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Toyota reportedly working on second-generation 86

There's stronger confirmation that earlier reports of the Toyota 86's demise were premature. Autocar got confirmation from Toyota's European marketing boss that the company is planning a second generation of the 2+2 rear-wheel drive coupe, which is known as the GT86 in Europe, in concert with Subaru.

We presume that holds true for the U.S. as well; Autoblog sought confirmation from Toyota. It jibes with an earlier report in which both automakers refuted a Japanese outlet's assertion that the 86 and the Subaru BRZ would not see successor versions.

Toyota of Europe's Matt Harrison told Autocar the GT86 has been "a successful 'halo' product," adding that the 2020 Supra, which debuted earlier this year in Detroit, isn't meant as a replacement. "They are for different audiences and are different products," he said. "We see a situation where they will sit alongside each other."

The 86 launched as a 2012 model, starting its life as a Scion FR-S and becoming the 86 when Toyota pulled the plug on Scion in 2016. It shares a platform and Subaru's 205-horsepower 2.0-liter four-cylinder boxer engine and six-speed manual or automatic transmission with the BRZ.

The 86 has never been a particularly hot seller. Sales fell 39.4 percent in 2018 to 4,146 and have continued falling through the first two months of this year, down 29.5 percent to 487. (By comparison, Subaru sold 3,834 BRZs in 2018, down 7.2 percent.) But Toyota reportedly sees sports carslike the 86 as being more important as infusions of emotion to its brand rather than volume sales. It has also signaled a possible third sports car to sit underneath the 86.


Source: https://www.autoblog.com/2019/03/22/toyota-second-generation-86/

So... seems like it's still on, despite recent rumors.
 

Carmaker1

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In my opinion, sports cars or coupes seem to be relatively safe at Toyota and Lexus, but sport sedans not so much. Considering how the falling RC isn't even dead and this lives on, well clearly a new chapter at Toyota has turned, where poor selling 2-doors are automatically spared the ax. And it all goes back to Toyoda himself, as to why.
 
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In my opinion, sports cars or coupes seem to be relatively safe at Toyota and Lexus, but sport sedans not so much. Considering how the falling RC isn't even dead and this lives on, well clearly a new chapter at Toyota has turned, where poor selling 2-doors are automatically spared the ax. And it all goes back to Toyoda himself, as to why.
So a next gen Lexus RC replacement is pretty coming? I hope so. Hoping it’s 2022 or 2023 model year.
 

supra93

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Here is the official press release from 2019.


Sep. 27, 2019
Toyota and Subaru Agree on New Business and Capital Alliance
News Release Management CASE Connected Autonomous/Automated Electric
Toyota Motor Corporation
Subaru Corporation

Tokyo, Japan, September 27, 2019―Toyota Motor Corporation (Toyota) and Subaru Corporation (Subaru) agreed today on a new business and capital alliance with the aim of further developing and strengthening their long-term partnership.

Ever since concluding an agreement on business collaboration in 2005, partnership between Toyota and Subaru has included contract production by Subaru of Toyota vehicles and supply by Toyota of vehicles to Subaru, as well as joint development of the rear-wheel-drive Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ sports car models.

Also, with vast changes enveloping the automotive industry, which is being called on to respond to the new domains of CASE (connected, autonomous/automated, shared, and electric), Toyota and Subaru disclosed in June this year that they have agreed to jointly develop a platform dedicated to battery electric vehicles (BEVs) and to jointly develop a BEV model, both of which will employ Subaru's AWD technologies and Toyota's vehicle electrification technologies.

In this once-in-a-century period of profound transformation, by strengthening their bonds and aligning their capabilities, Toyota and Subaru aim to pursue driving enjoyment in the CASE era and to make ever-better cars beyond what either company has been able to achieve thus far. Furthermore, to deepen their relationship and to strengthen their ties toward advancing to the next stage while respecting the identity of each other's brand, the two companies have agreed that Toyota will increase its equity stake in Subaru and that Subaru will acquire shares in Toyota.
Details of business activities in the new alliance

    • In pursuit of making ever-better cars beyond that achieved thus far by Toyota and Subaru

  1. Bringing together both companies' strengths to jointly develop all-wheel-drive models that offer the ultimate sensation in all-wheel driving
  2. Joint development of the next-generation Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ

    • Expansion of the scope of partnership to survive this once-in-a-century period of profound transformation

  1. Following the Crosstrek Hybrid*, expanding use of the Toyota Hybrid System in other Subaru models
  2. Cooperation in the domain of connected vehicles and technical collaboration in the field of autonomous driving
 
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