2021 G80/2 BMW M3 & M4

Gor134

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I almost impulse purchased an E46 M3 Convertible 6MT in "decent condition" to replace my 440. Those German cars certainly aren't the best made. One of the kidney grilles fell out and the interior was creaking constantly. But it was the best driving car I've ever driven period. Those old school mechanical feels are something you can't get on a modern car. It's pretty slow by modern standards (way slower than my 440 and only comparable to an IS350 at most) but the fun cannot be compared. It's sad how the M3 became a hideous spec sheet maximizer with zero relatable experience to the old spirit M3.

So far I have sampled a few performance sedans from all brands and the GS-F is by far the best modern option. None of them are close to the E46 in terms of feel. The Lexus V8 does have better sound and way more power. It just lacks a manual transmission.

My ranking so far is E46 M3>GS-F>CT4-V Blackwing>F80 M3>G20 M340>IS500>S5>RS3>Stinger GT>C43>F90 M5. I will be trying the E92 M3 later and hopefully an IS-F could appear in my area.

DEFINITELY try the E92 M3, and have you tried the Chevy SS? I think neither would disappoint you.. the E9x M3 paired the modern styling with the old school NA experience and great hydraulic steering of the old (extra points if you get a "single hump" interior without idrive), while the Chevy SS was regarded by many as a modern E39 M5 in it's greatness. (I have not driven an SS).

E92 M3 is currently one of my dream cars, and having driven an '11 IS F I would definitely say the E92 is a better experience, with the IS-F having a very addicting induction noises....

For me.. I want to own all four of what I consider the "holy quartet" of V8 sport exec sedans/coupes... B8.5 RS 5 with the RS 4.2 engine, C63 W204 with the M156 engine, E92 M3 with it's S65, and the IS F with it's 2UR.
 

ssun30

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I tried a M156 before and it's pure muscle and 25L/100km of fuel consumption. Might as well have an American V8 in that case.

Is the S65 as reliable as the S54 and S55? I know it's derived from the very unreliable S85 V10. I don't have much faith in BMW engines from that era.

And I don't want to even touch an Audi V8 after seeing one of the teardown videos showing its stupidly complex and unserviceable design.
 

Gor134

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I tried a M156 before and it's pure muscle and 25L/100km of fuel consumption. Might as well have an American V8 in that case.

Is the S65 as reliable as the S54 and S55? I know it's derived from the very unreliable S85 V10. I don't have much faith in BMW engines from that era.

And I don't want to even touch an Audi V8 after seeing one of the teardown videos showing its stupidly complex and unserviceable design.
S65 has some core problems just like the S54 does, the rod bearings and throttle actuators are the main things around 80-120k mile that should be taken care of. There was 1 other but I forget...

Regarding S85, I think they can be reliable if they're actually driven hard and revved out.. my buddy has one that he bought at 92k miles and he's over 220k miles on the original motor with numerous trackdays, roadtrips, and hitting the canyons twice a week currently (and used to be everyday when he worked up in the moutnains) does oil changes every 5k and only issue it gave him was with the VANOS system around 200k and replaced his rod bearings + chain guide at the same time

Regarding the 4.2, they're actually solid engines in the RS 4/5 and don't suffer from the same problems of the regular 4.2 in the S4s/A6s/A8s.
 
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I tried a M156 before and it's pure muscle and 25L/100km of fuel consumption. Might as well have an American V8 in that case.

Is the S65 as reliable as the S54 and S55? I know it's derived from the very unreliable S85 V10. I don't have much faith in BMW engines from that era.

And I don't want to even touch an Audi V8 after seeing one of the teardown videos showing its stupidly complex and unserviceable design.
AFAIK, S65 and S85 engines are ticking time bombs, the S55 is significantly better but they're imperfect.

Later S54s are pretty stout.
 

Gor134

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Yeah I know I know... Necessary preventative maintenance = not a reliable engine to begin with.. but hey, IDC give me an E92 M3 when I have a better paying job to afford the maintenance 😭
 

mikeavelli

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I almost impulse purchased an E46 M3 Convertible 6MT in "decent condition" to replace my 440. Those German cars certainly aren't the best made. One of the kidney grilles fell out and the interior was creaking constantly. But it was the best driving car I've ever driven period. Those old school mechanical feels are something you can't get on a modern car. It's pretty slow by modern standards (way slower than my 440 and only comparable to an IS350 at most) but the fun cannot be compared. It's sad how the M3 became a hideous spec sheet maximizer with zero relatable experience to the old spirit M3.

So far I have sampled a few performance sedans from all brands and the GS-F is by far the best modern option. None of them are close to the E46 in terms of feel. The Lexus V8 does have better sound and way more power. It just lacks a manual transmission.

My ranking so far is E46 M3>GS-F>CT4-V Blackwing>F80 M3>G20 M340>IS500>S5>RS3>Stinger GT>C43>F90 M5. I will be trying the E92 M3 later and hopefully an IS-F could appear in my area.

Solid ranking
 

ssun30

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I wish the 2UR had ITBs out of the factory. Yamaha makes some really good ITBs. The engine is already quite responsive but still needs some help to overcome that transmission.

The S54 has almost zero delay. It is the opposite of the two turbocharged Japanese I6s that IMO people give too much credit for.
 

ssun30

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Finally got a chance to try the E9x M3. It was an E93 convertible so it's very heavy and soft. The brakes don't stop the car well and there is a lot of body roll and steering delay.

The S65 has great sound but I think it has too little induction and too much exhaust. The S54 is a better balance. Both have extremely sharp throttle response. Being such a small displacement V8 with ITB and dual intake, it has very little rotational inertia so I have to nail my rev matching for both upshifts and downshifts. I admit I'm spoiled by modern auto rev match so I'm quite sloppy with these more raw cars.

This engine has no torque but endless revs. I'm just too used to the torquey B58 and 2UR but I definitely appreciate its appeal. The feel of revving it to 8200rpm is both exciting and worrying at the same time since I feel the whole car isn't put together well enough that it can fall apart any time. The clutch is already mushy and the transmission feels like plastic. It has 100,000 km so I think I would have to spend at least $5k to get it back to proper function.

In the end I still prefer the E46 even though I am not a fan of I6 sounds. But the main thing is I want a 2UR more, but it really really needs a manual.

Driving a car with the perfect powertrain (B58 6MT) really spoiled me. I may get very excited about certain cars with lots of character during a test drive, but every time I get back in my car I just feel "this is just perfect and I should never sell it." F30/32 340i/440i with manuals are getting rare, so if you want a new one definitely give the manual Supra a chance. It may be expensive with dealer markups, but you will want to keep it forever.
 
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Gor134

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I had the complete opposite experience with a DCT M3 E92 recently, granted I'm coming from a much slower experience. But getting to rip that S65 up my local mountain road felt so good and completely exceeded my expectations as my dream attainable car. He had an exhaust of course, sounded very raspy but good and that delightful hydraulic steering. Stock suspension felt really good to too. I have driven an ISF on the same road too.
 

ssun30

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I had the complete opposite experience with a DCT M3 E92 recently, granted I'm coming from a much slower experience. But getting to rip that S65 up my local mountain road felt so good and completely exceeded my expectations as my dream attainable car. He had an exhaust of course, sounded very raspy but good and that delightful hydraulic steering. Stock suspension felt really good to too. I have driven an ISF on the same road too.
The convertible M3s were always much softer and more sluggish than the coupes. That's why they are much cheaper on the used market.

The engine is a good engine, but I don't feel comfortable with it and I would still prefer either the S54 I6 or 2UR V8. If it were anywhere close to half the reliability of 2UR I would have no problem revving it to 8k with every shift. It also could use a much shorter gearing (at least for 2nd and 3rd). The revs are good but take forever to get there.
 
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