Lexus Developing Twin-Turbo Hybrid Powertrain?

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,510
Reactions
3,439

krew

Site Founder
Administrator
Messages
3,686
Reactions
5,670
Lexus Developing Twin-Turbo Hybrid Powertrain?

18-04-13-lexus-ls-flagship.jpg


EV is also being considered.
View the original article post
 

Benito

Fan
Messages
99
Reactions
119
I’ve been hoping for a turbo charged hybrid for some time and have wondered why Lexus hasn’t developed one by now.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,326
Reactions
7,418
With Merc going EV on next-gen S-Class. I'm sure the LS+ will have loads of electrified variants.
 

TheNerdyPotato

Follower
Messages
156
Reactions
179
It sounds expensive. I wonder how much of a market there would be for this powertrain. Is there enough demand to offset the cost to develop? From a business standpoint, it may be a better idea to develop and mass produce a 4cyl turbo hybrid. However, having a more limited-production halo option lets them gather data and less likely to have wide-spread issues.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,510
Reactions
3,439
It sounds expensive. I wonder how much of a market there would be for this powertrain. Is there enough demand to offset the cost to develop? From a business standpoint, it may be a better idea to develop and mass produce a 4cyl turbo hybrid. However, having a more limited-production halo option lets them gather data and less likely to have wide-spread issues.

there is no market for it, and I dont think it will happen... 450h powertrain is already expensive for markets that need it, like europe.

If they want to spend money, it is much better to do sport plugins and full evs that hybrids that people wont buy.
 

mediumhot

Follower
Messages
456
Reactions
606
There have been few sources straight out from Lexus confirming it's being developed. Key question is how they gonna position it? Is it going to be exclusive for LS-F high performance variant or are they going eat up the cost in order to make it a true successor to 450h in the same price range?
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,510
Reactions
3,439
There have been few sources straight out from Lexus confirming it's being developed. Key question is how they gonna position it? Is it going to be exclusive for LS-F high performance variant or are they going eat up the cost in order to make it a true successor to 450h in the same price range?

If the source is Australian mag that says head engineer smiled when asked about it , then sure.

Otherwise no, there were no sources about it.

Sources say Lexus is doing 600+ hp v8 twin turbo engine for LS F, LC F, this has been in various Japanese mags for past year or more .
 
Last edited:

TheNerdyPotato

Follower
Messages
156
Reactions
179
Sources say Lexus is doing 600+ hp v8 twin turbo engine for LS F, LC F, this has been in various Japanese mags for past year or more .

The prevailing rumor was it would be a 4.0l V8, but I think that's unlikely. Toyota is historically conservative with their engine power outputs, especially on mass produced engines. Both the 8AR and V35A have a specific output of about 120hp/l. To get 600hp, they'd need to jump to 150hp/l out of 4.0l. While this isn't impossible (Ford GT 640hp/3.5l, for example) I doubt that Toyota/Lexus would push that hard. 5.0l would achieve 600hp at 120hp/l, so that'd be an option.

Giving specific output a small bump to 130hp/l would require a 4.6l, which would be the displacement you'd get from taking the V35A and adding 2 more cylinders. I think this is a totally plausible solution. It would feature some parts and tooling commonality with the lower-end engine while having slightly more aggressive tuning for being the top-end engine option.
 

Joaquin Ruhi

Moderator
Messages
1,529
Reactions
2,434
Giving specific output a small bump to 130hp/l would require a 4.6l, which would be the displacement you'd get from taking the V35A and adding 2 more cylinders. I think this is a totally plausible solution. It would feature some parts and tooling commonality with the lower-end engine while having slightly more aggressive tuning for being the top-end engine option.
I like your thinking, but there is one detail: I'm no engineer, but I think this degree of commonality might require the V6 and V8 to share the same degree angle in the "V". The ideal angle for a smooth V6 is 60 degrees, whereas for a V8 it's 90 degrees. Yes, there are a number of 90-degree V6s that are essentially V8s with a couple of cylinders lopped off (the old Buick Fireball/3800 and current Jaguar AJ126 come to mind), but they require the added weight and complexity of balance shafts for acceptable smoothness. And I don't recall anybody ever taking a 60-degree V6 and adding balance shafts and a couple of cylinders to create a V8.

Toyota/Lexus has always prioritized smoothness and the ideal configuration for each engine configuration over a need for parts and tooling commonality.

Having said that, this sort of parts and tooling commonality is ideal for inline engines, with BMW and Volvo as standout believers in this.
 

TheNerdyPotato

Follower
Messages
156
Reactions
179
I like your thinking, but there is one detail: I'm no engineer, but I think this degree of commonality might require the V6 and V8 to share the same degree angle in the "V". The ideal angle for a smooth V6 is 60 degrees, whereas for a V8 it's 90 degrees. Yes, there are a number of 90-degree V6s that are essentially V8s with a couple of cylinders lopped off (the old Buick Fireball/3800 and current Jaguar AJ126 come to mind), but they require the added weight and complexity of balance shafts for acceptable smoothness. And I don't recall anybody ever taking a 60-degree V6 and adding balance shafts and a couple of cylinders to create a V8.

Toyota/Lexus has always prioritized smoothness and the ideal configuration for each engine configuration over a need for parts and tooling commonality.

Having said that, this sort of parts and tooling commonality is ideal for inline engines, with BMW and Volvo as standout believers in this.

They wouldn't share the same same block design, crankshaft, or many other major parts, but a lot of the other components could be shared. Pistons, rings, wrist-pins, valves, springs, etc... could be shared, along with things such as cylinder boring/honing tools, assuming they use the same bore size.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,326
Reactions
7,418
As I've said 4.6 no longer makes sense since intermediate displacements are undesirable from a tax perspective.

Dynamic Force optimizes displacement for each new block, there is no "common displacement per cylinder" rule in Dynamic Force. We have the 2.0, 2.5, and 3.5 which all have different bore sizes. Common displacement per cylinder only works for companies building only inline engines, but we know TMC doesn't build an Inline-6.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
3,326
Reactions
7,418
Both the 8AR and V35A have a specific output of about 120hp/l. To get 600hp, they'd need to jump to 150hp/l out of 4.0l. While this isn't impossible (Ford GT 640hp/3.5l, for example) I doubt that Toyota/Lexus would push that hard. 5.0l would achieve 600hp at 120hp/l, so that'd be an option.

Making 150hp/L on premium gas is trivial. There's very little challenge involved. That being said, 5.0 should still be a possiility.
 

TheNerdyPotato

Follower
Messages
156
Reactions
179
Making 150hp/L on premium gas is trivial. There's very little challenge involved. That being said, 5.0 should still be a possiility.

Again, Toyota is historically conservative with engine power output. I'm not saying that they can't. I'm saying that they're not likely to push that hard. They have a tendency to detune and overbuild their engines for long-term reliability.
 

mikeavelli

Moderator
Messages
6,775
Reactions
15,142
Some of the Germans are using a small 4.0 V-8 for awhile now with some huge numbers. While I welcome a V-6tt hybrid I think it probably would make like 450hp and not the 500hp number we have been looking for. That said if it is significantly faster with better MPG that is of course a huge plus.

I do hope if it comes the USA gets a F-Sport version. The Current 500h can be had as a F-Sport overseas but not here.
 

spwolf

Expert
Messages
3,510
Reactions
3,439
Some of the Germans are using a small 4.0 V-8 for awhile now with some huge numbers. While I welcome a V-6tt hybrid I think it probably would make like 450hp and not the 500hp number we have been looking for. That said if it is significantly faster with better MPG that is of course a huge plus.

I do hope if it comes the USA gets a F-Sport version. The Current 500h can be had as a F-Sport overseas but not here.

main reason for why I dont think we will see hybrid twin turbo is the markets that require such vehicle - it would sell only in Europe and nobody would buy it there since we moved to plugins or evs for that market. People simply dont buy large high powered engines like that anymore - for us 350hp hybrid is enough.

Markets that buy high performance engines, such as USA, Arab countries and Russia do not buy hybrids. They want 600hp petrol engine.

And this is why we have seen reports of 600+ hp engine for LS and LC for past year in Japanese mags, and no reports of twin turbo hybrids, except for Australians and their "smile" from head engineer, something we know a lot about since last time they started talking about GT-86 turbo after head engineer smile.

I would guess the smile comes from him either not understanding them or thinking how funny they are, lol.