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Toyota Announces New Engines, New Transmissions, & New Hybrid System
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LexusSteve
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It's about.... Damn. Time.
mikeavelli
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About time...
Sad to see no Dual Clutch coming.....Porsche PDK is the standard...the freaking thing reads minds it moves so fast....
Sad to see no Dual Clutch coming.....Porsche PDK is the standard...the freaking thing reads minds it moves so fast....
RDS
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capacity : 2,487cc
bore x stroke : 87.5mm x 103.4mm
compression ratio : 13.0:1 for conventional application , 14.0:1 for hybrid application
both run D-4S system , which we already know what it is via Lexus' V6s & V8s
202hp/6600rpm & 250Nm/4800rpm for regular application
174hp/5700rpm & 220Nm/3600-5200rpm for hybrid application
Source : http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/jp/powertrain/engine/
bore x stroke : 87.5mm x 103.4mm
compression ratio : 13.0:1 for conventional application , 14.0:1 for hybrid application
both run D-4S system , which we already know what it is via Lexus' V6s & V8s
202hp/6600rpm & 250Nm/4800rpm for regular application
174hp/5700rpm & 220Nm/3600-5200rpm for hybrid application
Source : http://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/jp/powertrain/engine/
Not sure if that is a good or a bad thing, and not sure if is about time, or already too late., but I just hope Toyota has thought out very well in long-term future.
It is well known and forecastable that the future of cars is electric (regardless of self-driving), whether battery or fuel cell, and that where batteries or fuel cells are still insufficient for the time being, (plug-in)/ hybrids will be an alternative. What is also proven by Toyota, IMO the true "green" car company, as opposed to "so-called green", is that a de-tuned large displacement naturally aspirated gasoline engine is more efficient than a forced small displacement turbocharged gasoline engine. Although Toyota now makes turbocharged I4 gasoline and the up-coming turbocharged V6 gasoline, these engines are used as ICE only, and from what is seen are not meant to be used in conjunction with hybrid or plug-in hybrid technology. This can be seen by the future nomenclature of gasoline models:
IS 300 : Turbocharged I4
IS 300h : Naturally Aspirated I4 + Hybrid
LS 500 : Turbocharged V6
LS 500h : Naturally Aspirated V6 + Hybrid
As I said in another post, big engines are reserved for exotics and high performance cars, something that is not TMC business, even though they have the knowhow (Lexus LFA). When talking about such cars, the Japanese are lacking in status (this is marketing), and even a sportscar/supercar beater is not desirable even if much cheaper because of badge (Subaru WRX and Nissan GT-R). TMC is in the same situation with Lexus F. With that said, other than high-performance and exotics, V8 engines are dead, and TMC is not in high-performance and exotic market. The up-coming BMW M5 is according to inside news going to be the last M5 with V8, even with this generation M550i with V8 was not needed, but had no negative impact on costs, on the contrary it distributes the costs of N63/S63. The next M5 (after F90) is to get a Turbocharged I6 + Hybrid setup. But in the current 5 Series G30 for example, the cars that will sell and bring BMW money are 520d and 530d in Western Europe, and 530i and 540i in North America. Volvo for example, has only Turbocharged I4 engines that in conjunction with hybrid tech make up to 400 PS. Because of Toyota's preference for NA 6 cylinders over FI 4 cylinders for hybrids, TMC still makes V6 rather than I6, because they use that engine for FWD-T hybrids. Thus there is further development of I4 and V6, rather than costs cutting by I4/I6 or 90° V8/V6 engine platform.
In this is where the strategic question comes into play for the automotive industry: as time goes on, requirement for ICEs will get stricter, but EV technology and development will hinder profitability. Not meeting ICE requirements can result in sales ban or at least sales loss, lack of EV products will result pure market loss.
If TMC's engine plan is good for two generations (14 years), that is fine. In these two generations, V8's will be money losing products, because they will be high costs and low volume. This applies only for gasoline engines. Diesel engines for small cars are dead (since VAG Dieselgate). Daimler thinks about stopping diesel engines in North America, Japanese long ago did not work on diesel much. The only diesel market is Europe, and it will be hurt. In heavy duty vehicles, diesel will still prevail until there is some viable alternative, maybe hybrid diesel. But again diesel only makes sense in pick-up trucks, body-on-frame SUVs, and vans, and here only I4, I5 and I6/V6 make sense.
All that said, I hope Toyota's ICE investment, is a "transition investment" and not a "catch up investment", because it is too late to catch up. That is like BMW building an M1 supercar today, with NA V10 S85 with added direct injection to rival the Audi R8 and Lamborghini Huracan. It is too late, BMW missed that train. And so did TMC miss the train of powerful torquey turbocharged gasoline engines. But sometimes, in times of uncertainty as these currently in the car industry, being slow to react can turn into advantage, instead of reacting fast yet making the wrong moves.
If TMC's makes a high-performance turbocharged V8, I hope it is based on the old yet proven and still best in class V8, rather than build a new V8. But IMO, TMC does not need any other V8. No turbocharged V8 will sound as a naturally aspirated V8, and at that point, a lighter, more compact but same performing turbocharged V6 is even better. All the next Land Cruiser needs is a turbocharged gasoline V6 and a turbocharged diesel I6. The V8 Diesel (1VD) is truly outdated.
IMO PDK is overrated. Automatics are now just as fast, and smoother. CVT on the other hand are underrated and underdeveloped. The only place I see a DCT make sense due to lack of torque converter, is as a 2-speed DCT for electric cars. But a CVT could probably be even better. Just as about engines, there is no point for TMC to spend money on developing DCTs.
PS: Mr Toyoda is head of TMC BEV development. That is the most important thing, I don't want to see Toyota go the way of Nokia (PS: Nokia is making a come back.).
Mohammed Taha
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Well, if that is to replace all other admittedly old and ZF outsourced automatic transmissions, then better. I just know VAG DSG is not reliable, and hope TMC's will. If it is Aisin that makes these new direct-shift 8- and 10-speed gearboxes, I think we can be sure they will be great, Aisin makes the best (most reliable) gearboxes in the industry.
Mohammed Taha
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Very good points ...
However, from someone living in the UK, I can tell you what's happening on this side of the pond.
Germany is voting on banning internal combustion engines by 2030 which will definitely affect the rest of the EU. How the manufacturers will respond is a different story.
Diesel is still extremely popular on all types of vehicles; SUVs, sedans, luxury vehicles, etc... I find it weird, cause I can hear how loud the are, but the owners state that they're just as quite and smooth as petrol.
Gecko
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I personally don't think that banning internal combustion engines is going to happen in the States anytime soon. Electric charging infrastructure is not well developed and in general, our road system is much more spread out and our transportation system is less developed than most of Europe.
Can't drive from ____ to ______ in an electric car in ~5-6 hours. That'll never fly with Americans.
Can't drive from ____ to ______ in an electric car in ~5-6 hours. That'll never fly with Americans.
Sadly you're mistaken. In Lexus' world "Direct Shift" simply means a glorified auto tranny. Nowhere close to an automated manual at all.
http://pressroom.lexus.com/releases/2013+lexus+is+f+sedan+aug12.htm
I guess Toyota cares too much about reliability to ever use a dual clutch transmission in production.
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CIF
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Excellent news. It's known that Toyota has been working on these engines and transmissions for quite a few years, but nice to finally get some sort of announcement. Dynamic Force as a marketing name is a bit corny, but at least it sounds way better than Honda's 'Earth Dreams' slogan.
Some significant information is hidden in the press release, as well as Toyota's technical documents on their global website. There are going to be 17 variants of nine new engines. I hold out hope that includes one or two new V8 engine designs. Also significant is that all these new engines are modular designs, which means a quicker rollout of the engines, as mentioned in the press release.
Also most interesting among the press release and technical documents is that Toyota went to a huge amount of effort to have these engines and transmissions perform "as desired" in regards to response, acceleration, and smooth operation. Toyota mentions "as desired" response even under heavy or sudden accelerator pedal use. Toyota further mentions a lot of effort went into improving noise, vibration, and harshness with the engines, the transmissions, and how that relates to improved NVH measures in TNGA platforms. Now this is very interesting because it goes against the design fundamentals of turbos. Turbos fundamentally do not provide "as desired" acceleration or response, unless they are heavily electrically assisted. Turbos also fundamentally do not provide a smooth experience, and turbos present some problems with regards to noise, vibration, and harshness.
Digging through one of Toyota's technical PDFs on this presentation, I caught the phrase "D4-S supercharged". Now I don't know if this was a mistranslation, if it simply means an improved version of D4-S, or if this actually literally is hinting at supercharged instead of turbocharged engines. The most current rumors and insider info strongly suggest we'll see some turbo engines from Toyota. However IMHO it would be amazing if it turned out to be superchargers and not turbochargers. Superchargers would fit perfectly Toyota's philosophy of "as desired" acceleration and response with these new powertrains. Also it would be an example of Toyota going their own way, and not blindly jumping on the turbo bandwagon like most automakers today. Now yes, the fact that we already have a turbo 4 cyl engine released by Toyota is evidence against any superchargers coming, but the above phrase I found in the technical documents is curious.
Also regarding all the new engines, apparently they're all supposed to have VVT-iE and D4-S at minimum, along with other small and specific tweaks. Toyota mentions improved torque and torque curves for all the new engines, and "additional technologies" depending on the engine variant. So it will be exciting to see exactly which additional technologies are used in the higher end engines/variants.
Specifically regarding this new 2.5L engine, it is said to be 20% more fuel efficient than the outgoing 2.5L AR engine. Also the exact figures are actually 202 HP and 184 lb-ft of torque. These are class-leading numbers for a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine in this class. Better numbers than Honda's new 2.4L, and better number than Mazda's new Skyactiv 2.5L engine. Well the Skyactiv 2.5L matches the Toyota in torque, but the Toyota has much better HP.
Further excited to see how this relates to certain next-gen Toyota and Lexus models.
Some significant information is hidden in the press release, as well as Toyota's technical documents on their global website. There are going to be 17 variants of nine new engines. I hold out hope that includes one or two new V8 engine designs. Also significant is that all these new engines are modular designs, which means a quicker rollout of the engines, as mentioned in the press release.
Also most interesting among the press release and technical documents is that Toyota went to a huge amount of effort to have these engines and transmissions perform "as desired" in regards to response, acceleration, and smooth operation. Toyota mentions "as desired" response even under heavy or sudden accelerator pedal use. Toyota further mentions a lot of effort went into improving noise, vibration, and harshness with the engines, the transmissions, and how that relates to improved NVH measures in TNGA platforms. Now this is very interesting because it goes against the design fundamentals of turbos. Turbos fundamentally do not provide "as desired" acceleration or response, unless they are heavily electrically assisted. Turbos also fundamentally do not provide a smooth experience, and turbos present some problems with regards to noise, vibration, and harshness.
Digging through one of Toyota's technical PDFs on this presentation, I caught the phrase "D4-S supercharged". Now I don't know if this was a mistranslation, if it simply means an improved version of D4-S, or if this actually literally is hinting at supercharged instead of turbocharged engines. The most current rumors and insider info strongly suggest we'll see some turbo engines from Toyota. However IMHO it would be amazing if it turned out to be superchargers and not turbochargers. Superchargers would fit perfectly Toyota's philosophy of "as desired" acceleration and response with these new powertrains. Also it would be an example of Toyota going their own way, and not blindly jumping on the turbo bandwagon like most automakers today. Now yes, the fact that we already have a turbo 4 cyl engine released by Toyota is evidence against any superchargers coming, but the above phrase I found in the technical documents is curious.
Also regarding all the new engines, apparently they're all supposed to have VVT-iE and D4-S at minimum, along with other small and specific tweaks. Toyota mentions improved torque and torque curves for all the new engines, and "additional technologies" depending on the engine variant. So it will be exciting to see exactly which additional technologies are used in the higher end engines/variants.
Specifically regarding this new 2.5L engine, it is said to be 20% more fuel efficient than the outgoing 2.5L AR engine. Also the exact figures are actually 202 HP and 184 lb-ft of torque. These are class-leading numbers for a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engine in this class. Better numbers than Honda's new 2.4L, and better number than Mazda's new Skyactiv 2.5L engine. Well the Skyactiv 2.5L matches the Toyota in torque, but the Toyota has much better HP.
Further excited to see how this relates to certain next-gen Toyota and Lexus models.
Gecko
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Maybe I'm a little early, but if you want to use the Camry as an example - 24/33 currently, + 20% would be roughly 28/39. I wonder if the numbers will really be that high, but we'll see. I'm betting for something like 27/38.
Isn't Honda's new 2.4L mated to a CVT? And their new 1.5L turbo as well?
At least on paper, Toyota seems to really have the upper hand with this new 2.5L/8AT combo.
Toyota has always built amazingly good engines, when I studied them in detail. I do not understand why they get so little credit. Even the turbocharged I4 is technically more advanced than competitors, with air-to-water cooling and forged internals, never mind the 2JZ that was a head of its time (when compared to BMW's I6 for example). And Toyota's NA V8 in the RC-F/GS-F/LC 500 is so performing and efficient for what it is, the Germans all have to resort to turbos to beat this engine. 0,5l per cylinder as most engines today is a compromise, evermore so for diesel engines, Toyota understands that.