FeaturesLexus ES: Sixth Generation

Driving the All-New 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

Lexus ES Hero Image

Lexus Enthusiast editor Kevin Watts traveled to Nashville, Tennessee last month to test drive the all-new 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h hybrid. This is his personal impressions of the car, a full technical overview was posted last week.

For one moment, forget about the new Lexus ES sedan. Instead, think about every ES previous, and how you would describe it. It would likely be with words like Comfortable or Predictable, perhaps Conservative or even Dull if you were being less charitable.

For six generations, the ES has epitomized the old-school approach to luxury vehicles by being plush and dependable, never pushing the envelope or stepping outside of the lines. As a formula, the success is undeniable — Lexus has sold 2.12 million ES sedans since 1989, with over 1 million in the USA alone.

But that was then, and this is now. Sedan sales used to be able to support the IS sports sedan, the GS mid-size sedan, and the ES that straddled the two in price and size, respectively. Now, the entire automotive market thinks only of crossovers & SUVS, and Lexus has to be selective when updating its sedan lineup.

Enter the seventh-generation ES, a sedan that moves the needle closer to mid-size luxury in class and quality, while maintaining its price position as an entry-level luxury car. The times have changed, and the formula must change with it.


In the past, there’s been a hard limit in terms of the ES design. Despite the similarities in character to the LS flagship, Lexus has been mindful to maintain a respectful distance between the two models. This is no longer the case with the new model, as the ES now borrows from the LS sedan extensively. Even so, it’s only in the broad strokes — the seventh-generation ES is a much simpler design, free from the trappings of being a flagship.

My mixed feelings on the waterfall grille of the standard model have subsided somewhat, though I much prefer the styling of the ES F SPORT on the whole. There are certain configurations of color and angle where the car looks more expensive and upscale than necessary.

(As for the new colors: Sunlit Green is surprisingly intense with a wide spectrum depending on lighting. Moonbeam Beige Metallic is not my thing.)


Inside, the cabin is dominated by the 12.3-inch multimedia display, to the point where the rest of the interior practically fades away. It’s well enough that the biggest upgrade happens behind that screen, with the introduction of Apple CarPlay and the integration of the Amazon Alexa voice service.

Lexus ES Interior

There will be the usual complaints about the Remote Touch controller, which appears as a touchpad in the ES, but the new openness of the Lexus infotainment software makes manual input feel archaic. Voice control is fluid, working well regardless of the preferred service.

After so many years without support, having Apple CarPlay should be the turning point in discussing Lexus infotainment. Lack of Google integration is a valid complaint, but anyone in the Apple or Amazon ecosystem will be very happy.

(Unfortunate that the in-car Alexa must be launched every time the car is turned on, but there’s surely a contingent of buyers that are happy for that additional layer of privacy.)

For the rest of the cabin, some point-form from my notes:

  • The “wave” leather pattern available with some packages is subtle in appearance but bold in design. Lexus took a real chance adding texture to the trim, but it ends up elevating the interior.
  • A full black interior does the cabin no favors, as it hides the details and highlights the plastics. On the flip side, the Circuit Red interior is brilliant, perfectly in line with F SPORT while keeping a semblance of maturity expected with the ES.
  • There just isn’t enough wood trim in the cabin, though it does allow for a nice upgrade in the mid-cycle refresh down the line.

While I made sure to drive the standard ES 350 and the hybrid ES 300h, I was unable to escape the siren call of the Ultra White ES 350 F SPORT and its Circuit Red interior. There will be those that deride the very existence of a front-wheel-drive ES performance package, but the benefits are real and pronounced.

As expected, the upgrades all center on the driver — the steering wheel is leather-wrapped and thicker, the seats have extended side bolsters, there’s aluminum pedals and a G-Force gauge in the instrument panel. An Adaptive Variable Suspension is standard.

Lexus ES Driving

The thing that sold me was the steering, where the ES F SPORT is a significant upgrade over the standard model. There’s more weight to the wheel, providing better feedback and increasing the luxury factor of the driving experience. Again, the ES emulates a more expensive car in a very positive way.

(It should be noted that steering feel becomes much heavier in Sport mode for both Luxury and F Sport models.)


There’s a point during the day when I’m out in an ES 300h, driving around the Tennessee countryside, looking for somewhere to take photos and maybe shoot a video. My expectation of a quick turnaround quickly subsides, and I find myself driving aimlessly, pulling into small driveways, backing out onto busy roads, trying to find a patch of privacy with a good view.

Here’s the kicker — I never end up finding a spot. 40 minutes in the southern wilderness, and not a photo opportunity anywhere. But in the process, I do learn a couple things about the ES, the hybrid in particular.

Lexus ES Driving

Where the ES F SPORT feels like a distant relative to the previous generation, the ES hybrid is more evolutionary in its handling — light to the touch, but still grounded on the road.

The ES 300h is whisper quiet at moderate load, but even with the additional hybrid frequency-specific sound dampening, I’m not a fan of the engine & electric interplay. During heightened acceleration, the whine is audible and mechanical, like a washing machine spinning too fast.

But the driving experience is almost besides the point, because the ES 300h delivers a combined 44 mpg for city & highway driving. Outside of a plug-in, there is no more fuel-efficient luxury car available in the USA. I’m convinced my IQ went up a few points in my time behind the wheel.


In a lucky turn of events, the standard ES 350 is the last car I drive — it’s an amalgamation of the other two cars, with the F SPORT’s V6 and its eight-speed transmission with the lighter driving touch of the ES 300h.

If you have any familiarity with the ES sedan over the years, and perhaps are looking to capture that classic experience, the ES 350 is the car for you. The core experience remains the same — the cabin is still comfortably isolating, and the driving remains suitably effortless. The drive back to the hotel is a breeze, just as you would hope for after a long day.


Lexus ES Final

So what words would I use to describe this new ES? Comfortable most certainly, but I would add Confident and even Compelling as new qualities. Lexus may want to position this car against the Mercedes C-Class & Audi A4, but its true competitors are a class above and $10,000 more expensive. There is a lot of car for the money here.

This leads to wondering about how the front-wheel drive of the ES will compete against the rear-wheel drive performance of the E-Class or the all-wheel drive of the A6, but this is only one part of the formula. The better question is, how can Mercedes and Audi afford to compete with this car?

Comments
I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.
reposado
Great review. Can you talk about the new Lane Tracing Assist(LTA)? How it compares vs propilot, autopilot, etc?
Welcome to Lexus Enthusiast, reposado!

LTA isn't a full on self-driving system, it's comparable to Nissan's ProPilot where it will simply attempt to stay in one lane (including around curves and stuff, of course). If I understand correctly it's a bit more robust than the Nissan system in that it can follow a car ahead of you in cases where the road markings are unreadable or unclear but it's otherwise similar.
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  • R
    RAL
  • June 16, 2018
Welcome aboard! @reposado
Ian Schmidt
I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.
If you read older ES review, it was certainly almost always called boaty... which new one is not.

Actually, I am pretty sure new ES, especially F-Sport will easily handle better than my 2009 IS... but hey, I am driving ethusiasts RWD while ES drivers are driving a boat :)
I like driving the boat. XV40 best boat.
I used to only desire the F-Sports for the aggressive looking front fascia but now that the non-F-sports looking just as aggressive with the LS and the ES but mixed with some of that Lexus elegance, I actually prefer those more and of course the luxury interiors are lightyears ahead of the F-Sport no option interiors.
L
Just out of curiosity what can you not get on an F-sport other than leather and wood trim? I was leaning towards the luxury package but the circuit red in the F-sport is growing on me so im starting to wonder the draw backs of the sport package compared to the luxury/Ultra luxury package.
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spwolf
I dont get which review out of 500 posted, including one by @krew, made you think that ES is still a boat.

I have read and viewed at least 50 reviews, probably more, and I have yet to see a single one that says that ES handles like old generation, like a boat.
......
Ian Schmidt
I don't think he meant "land yacht" in the handling sense, but rather in the "big and roomy and plush" sense. No ES ever made has handled as badly as the Detroit big iron that phrase was originally coined for.
Thanks Ian! That is exactly what I meant. I didn't mean it in a "handling" sense. It was just merely a slang for it being a big - comfy car. I didn't say it handles like a land yacht - I just said it was a land yacht. Lol.

Besides - I do agree. The 2018 Toyota Camry XSE and the 2019 Lexus ES handles better than their predecessors did. But that doesn't mean its some handling-king that you put on the mountain roads.
Sakura
Besides - I do agree. The 2018 Toyota Camry XSE and the 2019 Lexus ES handles better than their predecessors did. But that doesn't mean its some handling-king that you put on the mountain roads.
yeah, so what does that mean?

Re-read krew's review, forget your own preconceived notions about ES, it handles well vs competition, including A6, etc. As I said before, It likely handles way better than my own IS, which is supposedly sporty RWD sedan.
TNGA IS should be fun though :)
Ian Schmidt
TNGA IS should be fun though :)
yeah, problem with old platform was that there is choice they had to make - sport/hard or comfy/boat... with TNGA it does not have to be that black and white, and it is quite cool that Toyota has managed to do that and not VW for instance, that has done platform sharing forever and all of their new vehicles are having this old Toyota problem of comfy vs sport.
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Sakura

Other than leather and wood trim with ambiant lighting I'm not seeing much else you cant option from the luxury and ultra luxury package to the F-sport. Am i missing something? I know those are pretty big pieces but just making sure i understand the limitations.
lsu5508
Other than leather and wood trim with ambiant lighting I'm not seeing much else you cant option from the luxury and ultra luxury package to the F-sport. Am i missing something? I know those are pretty big pieces but just making sure i understand the limitations.

I really want the more aggressive styling as i really hate the basic grill on the base model ES.
Looks like Power Trunk open/close and Power Rear Sunshade are the most significant differences between Ultra Luxury & F SPORT, also F SPORT is only available with NuLuxe rather than leather. I wonder if F SPORT will have the ML sound system as an option?
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I thought you had both of those listed as optional additions in your technical review..
lsu5508
I thought you had both of those listed as optional additions in your technical review..
And so I did! However, it's difficult to say just which of the stand-alone options Lexus will offer on the F SPORT.
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spwolf
yeah, so what does that mean?

Re-read krew's review, forget your own preconceived notions about ES, it handles well vs competition, including A6, etc. As I said before, It likely handles way better than my own IS, which is supposedly sporty RWD sedan.
It means what it literally means.
I mean: it handles better than its predecessors but its not something you would take to the mountains and push it to the edge.

I believe there is nothing wrong with my statement. It obviously better than before but its obviously not better than say a Civic Type R or STi is where I'm getting at. Hence - I said, "handling-king". Obviously the Lexus ES wasn't built for that and there is nothing wrong with that. The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

Within the competition? If you included the A6, does that mean you are stating the 2019 Lexus ES's handling is also on par with the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class? I can't speak on behalf an A6 because I never drove one. But I highly doubt a FWD Lexus ES handles better than the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

lsu5508
Sakura

Other than leather and wood trim with ambiant lighting I'm not seeing much else you cant option from the luxury and ultra luxury package to the F-sport. Am i missing something? I know those are pretty big pieces but just making sure i understand the limitations.

I really want the more aggressive styling as i really hate the basic grill on the base model ES.
Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.
Sakura
I believe there is nothing wrong with my statement. It obviously better than before but its obviously not better than say a Civic Type R or STi is where I'm getting at. Hence - I said, "handling-king". Obviously the Lexus ES wasn't built for that and there is nothing wrong with that. The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.

Within the competition? If you included the A6, does that mean you are stating the 2019 Lexus ES's handling is also on par with the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class? I can't speak on behalf an A6 because I never drove one. But I highly doubt a FWD Lexus ES handles better than the BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.

The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.

I have forgoten how to call this marketing technique, but what I see is that it is used deceptively by lumping all German brands under the category of "good handling", when the truth is that only BMW and Porsche are the real ones that handle well, and that BMW has a recent past of cars not handling that well (see BMW Forum), and that only recently has Mercedes improved their handling, and that Audis have never really been and are not yet a well handling cars, and that the VW Golf is not a remarkably well handling car.

But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.

The worst handling car I ever drove was a Toyota Hiace mk4 (Grand Hiace or Gravia), it was RWD.

In general, unless it is a tiny budget car, there are no modern cars that handle badly, all handle well and are capable of illegal maneuvers before the driver's abilities are put to test. Imagine a film scene in real life, a basic 5 Series (that is not M5) will not have an edge over a Camry adequately powered, it will all be about the driver. It just happens a more daring driver will be behind the wheel of the BMW, but the BMW has nothing to do, it is image.
Sakura
The 2G Lexus IS was a wonderful luxury car but it wasn't a good handling car. The car was pretty numb and the steering was unresponsive. The 2G Lexus IS handled worst than the Acura TSX and Acura TL - so obviously the 2019 Lexus ES will handle better.
Note: I have driven the 2G Lexus IS, 1G/2G Acura TSX, and 3G Acura TL around the time period of 2006-2008.
Those are valid criticisms of the older versions of Lexus' 2IS. We should note, however, that the numerous suspension, steering and VDIM tweaks and improvements made for the 2011 2IS made a world of difference. A friend had a 2006 IS 350 with the Sport package, and after I got my 2011 IS 350 F Sport tried them back-to-back. It was an eye-opener, and yet another example of Lexus kaizen, or continuous improvement.

Ok, now back to ES...
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Levi
But what you say basically confirms that good handling is not just a matter of FWD vs. RWD vs. AWD.
FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.
Sakura
FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.
Like every other "amazing" FWD.
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Sakura
Like Krew said, Power Trunk, Power Shade, and Leather seems to be the biggest difference we know so far. I think we might have to wait for the actual build simulation to figure out what's really missing. I'm expecting quite a bit. The 3G 2014 Lexus IS F-Sport was missing quite a bit of features compared to its non F-Sport counter-part. I'll bet that later into the model years - the Lexus ES F-Sport might offer more luxurious features.


Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good luck before ordering? No chance i'm preordaining blind. Also when will the build options show up on the Lexus website?
Sakura
FWD, RWD and AWD will not be the sole reason a car handles good. A FWD car handle good. A RWD car can handle poorly. However - its how these cars are step up. This is what I was alluding too.

While the 2019 Lexus ES is obviously better - its not as "amazing" as some people make it out to be. Because you'll obviously feel the draw-backs of the MacPherson suspensions and FWD.
So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.
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lsu5508
When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?
I do not believe dealerships get "demo" cars before official production arrival. The online build simulation will be available before the vehicle hits dealers though.

If you are pre-ordering or ordering a car from the dealer, you'll be given a list of options that you are able to select from. That shouldn't be a problem.

spwolf
So Audi and VW can handle well, but Lexus ES cant handle well... this is basically your argument despite Krew writing review and every other review saying it handles well...

What is competition? Since you are going from Golf to Type R to Audi and MB.

Regular E220d does not handle anything special... A6 FWD also does not handle like Type R either.
Lexus ES can compete well against these cars, and there is simply no argument against that.

Even regular F10 never handled well in non M editions, it was pretty heavy car and by all reviews GS handled better.
Hold up. Take a step back - I get it, you like the Lexus ES. But I didn't say Audi and VW can handle better than the Lexus ES. You are putting words in my mouth for this bit.

Also - where did I say the Lexus ES can't handle well? I clearly stated the 2019 Lexus ES handles well and better than the predecessors.
What I said:
The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.
What I'm trying to say as well is: while the Lexus ES handles better, its still not a good handling FWD car like the Civic Type R. What I said was: The 2019 Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.
The Volvo S90/V90 competes against the three German. It has up to more than 400 PS from its transverse 2.0l I4. Audi A4 is probably going FWD next generation. I would not be surprised if too in a generation. With AWD now the standard, bar a for a few enthusiasts, and most flagships going electric, there is little incentive for RWD. Heavy car, no manual, RWD is not worthy.
Sakura
Lexus ES definitely handles better than its predecessors but its not a handling-king, such as the Type R. I'm addressing this point because you seem to push the narrative that the Lexus ES handling is extremely well, which is simply not true.
Yes - it handles well and better than before. But no - it doesn't handle like a "sporty" car.

No. There is an argument for this because the Lexus ES doesn't completely compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class. Just because the GS is axed and Toyota put the ES in its place - doesn't mean it competes there.
1) The Audi A6 is a longitudinal FWD car and the 5 Series/E-Class are RWD. On paper - this is already steps ahead in handling compared to the Lexus ES transverse FWD.
2) I would bracket Lexus ES as a car that competes with Buick, Genesis, and the Acura TLX. Its not an A6, 5, or E competitor.
3) It doesn't have to be a A6, 5, or E competitor. Its an amazing car that will sell extremely well where its at. I think people have to understand the Lexus ES is nothing more than a Lexus ES. Its built to be a handsome, luxurious, comfortable, and reliable car.

Lastly - I'm a Toyota shareholder and I like the concept of the Lexus ES, but this doesn't stop me from being bias with my opinions about the vehicle.
No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.
Photo Gallery: The 2019 Lexus ES 300h in Four Exterior Colors

[​IMG]

Matador Red Mica, Moonbeam Beige Metallic, Caviar, and Nightfall Mica.
View the original article post
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lsu5508
When will be the first time an average Joe can get a good look before ordering? Do dealerships get demo cars prior to official production arrival. No chance i'm pre-ordering blind. Also when do the build options and pricing typically show up on the Lexus website?
Do people pay MSRP when you order a car at Lexus? If so it seems bit crazy to me to pay full price when its not too difficult to get at least 10% off MSRP with a bit of negotiating.
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spwolf
No, those arguments do not hold.

1. For car to handle well it does not have to handle as well as Type R. None of the competition handles like Type R. Using some crazy FWD hatch is just an easy way to disqualify ES. Does A6 2.0tdi handle like Type R?
2. I dont care what is on paper, and it is not even on paper since all the mags said that handling is fine. This "paper" is only in your head because of your preconceived opinions of ES.
3. Why would Lexus ES only compete vs Buick and Acura TLX? Those cars do not exist in Europe or China or Japan. All European mags said it competes vs 5/E/A6, and all the reviews are quite favorable with handling being fine, suspension being fine, and interior praised for quality and construction, all vs competition which is A6/5/E.
4. And it is their competition. This is what people will compare it to, even in the US. And of course in the rest of the world, those competition you mention does not exist. When they walk to the Lexus dealership, they will certainly compare it to those cars, no matter where in the world they are.

Yes, you are biased against Lexus ES, despite all the reviews telling you not to be. I am not sure what does that have to do with being Toyota shareholder, at the time I worked for Toyota, we invested millions into it, and does not make me more qualified than other drivers/buyers of the brand.

I cant wait for you to try out ES and let us know your opinion. I am sure Krew also had preconceived opinions of what ES is.
Actually - they do.

1) I never said a car has to handle like a Civic Type R to be considered handling well. You are putting words in my mouth, again.
I literally said - the Lexus ES handles well - just not as good as the Civic Type R. I never said the Lexus ES has to handle like the Civic Type R to be considered as handling well.
The Lexus ES is an amazing luxury car that handles better than its predecessors - it doesn't need to be some handling king. It doesn't need to be powerful either. Its good at being a comfortable-luxurious-reliable car.
Lets refer back:
I believe there is nothing wrong with my statement. It obviously better than before but its obviously not better than say a Civic Type R or STi is where I'm getting at. Hence - I said, "handling-king". Obviously the Lexus ES wasn't built for that and there is nothing wrong with that.
As you can see - in the part I just bold and underlined - I stated there is nothing wrong with that. This literally means - the Lexus ES doesn't have to handle like a Civic Type R or STi to be considered good in its own right.
What I'm trying to say here is: the narrative you are pushing make it sounds like you think the Lexus ES is the next coming of the Toyota Supra and it handles like a track car.

No the A6 FWD doesn't handle like the Type R. Its not suppose to. Just like how the Lexus ES isn't suppose to. All I'm saying is - the Lexus ES don't handle like the Type R.

2) The "paper" isn't in my head. The fact is transverse FWD cars don't handle as well as longitudinal placed FWD cars and RWD cars unless the said FWD is set up to, like the Civic Type R. The Lexus ES is not a "sporty" car and its not set up to handle like one.
But that doesn't mean it don't handle well or "fine" as you put it. I fully agree it handles good for what it is. But it doesn't handle like a RWD sporty car and I'm not sure why you think it does.

3) The Buick sells in China. Buick is insanely popular in China. Buick and Audi are two most popular brands in China. Buick does sell in Japan but sales volume are low. Buick and Opel sell together in Europe. The Lexus ES always been compared to the the Buick brand - especially the Buick the LaCrosse. I think the Lexus ES doesn't compete against the A6, 5 Series or E-Class because:
1] Transverse FWD compared to Longitudinal FWD and RWD.
2] Driving dynamics. Sure - it handles better and well for what it is but it won't handle as well as the A6, 5, or E.
3] Not a "sporty" full-size luxury sedan.
4] The Lexus ES price is not even priced near them, which makes the A6, 5 Series and E-Class are a segment higher up.

What does being a Toyota shareholder have to do with anything? Uhhh... The Lexus ES is made, like many of the other Toyota products, to allow us shareholders to earn money. This is why the Lexus ES is the way it is. Its one of Toyota's cash cow. This is why the Lexus GS got axed and not the ES. The GS is the better car but the ES is the money maker.

How am I bias when I also clearly stated the Lexus ES handles well, better than before, its luxurious, comfortable, reliable, and it'll be a great seller.
So you think I'm bias against the Lexus ES because:
I said it doesn't handle like a Civic Type R (when I clearly stated its not suppose) - I was doing a counter-argument against your narrative that its an insanely good handling vehicle.
When I said it doesn't compete with the A6, 5, or E? It clearly doesn't compete with the A6, 5, or E. The Lexus ES is not the same type of vehicle as the A6, 5, or E.
??
^^ These criticism doesn't make me bias. Its legit points. I think you are the one here that is bias. (I know about your Pro-Lexus ES posts on CL too.)

This will be my last post/reply to because you seem not be able to hold a conversation without getting passively-aggressive. Its just a car, bro.
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reposado
Do people pay MSRP when you order a car at Lexus? If so it seems bit crazy to me to pay full price when its not too difficult to get at least 10% off MSRP with a bit of negotiating.
No. You don't pay MSRP. You allowed to talk about the price you would like to pay at before the ordering process. Usually - some dealers would give you even an addition slight discount because you are saving them extra money on insuring the vehicle and keeping it on their lot.

At Lexus dealers - you should get on average of 12%-14% off MSRP with tax regardless if the car is a new release or not. Just don't expect good lease deals when its newly released.

My advice is to wait until the second model year to buy the Lexus ES if you want one. This allows time for the better lease deals to come in and for Toyota to work on the first model year issues. Majority of cars experience issues on their first model year so quite a bit of people tend to hold off on buying first model years.
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Sakura
No. You don't pay MSRP. You allowed to talk about the price you would like to pay at before the ordering process. Usually - some dealers would give you even an addition slight discount because you are saving them extra money on insuring the vehicle and keeping it on their lot.

At Lexus dealers - you should get on average of 12%-14% off MSRP with tax regardless if the car is a new release or not. Just don't expect good lease deals when its newly released.

My advice is to wait until the second model year to buy the Lexus ES if you want one. This allows time for the better lease deals to come in and for Toyota to work on the first model year issues. Majority of cars experience issues on their first model year so quite a bit of people tend to hold off on buying first model years.
Just out of curiosity how major are the typical first year bugs? My current lease was up last month so I extended 6 months so i'm not going to have the luxury of waiting an additional year. I will be buying the F-sport most probably depending on options and price so lease deals are not a huge concern to me.

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