FeaturesLexus ES: Sixth Generation

Introducing the All-New 2019 Lexus ES 350 & ES 300h

Lexus ES Hero

The seventh-generation Lexus ES sedan has just been revealed at the Beijing Motor Show, and it’s time to dive into our coverage — let’s start off with the official press release.


  • Emotional Design Reflects New Dynamic Capabilities
  • Introduction of the First F SPORT Model in the ES Lineup
  • Hybrid Model Delivers Exceptional Mileage and Improved Performance

BEIJING – After six generations of unprecedented success in the entry-luxury sedan category, the next-generation Lexus ES is forging a new, more ambitious path. Long known for its unparalleled comfort, refinement and luxury appointments, the seventh-generation ES builds on its strengths with an all- new chassis that allows for a more dynamic exterior design and the introduction of the first ES F SPORT.

Lexus ES Interior

Representing the third vehicle in the Future Chapter of Lexus that started with the LC coupe and LS sedan, the new ES expands that vision of the brand’s future to a broader audience. Traditional buyers will find the new ES more spacious, quieter and safer than ever before while a new generation of customers will be introduced to a sedan with sharpened performance, class-leading active safety technology and a level of craftsmanship rarely found in this segment.

The New Dimension of ES Design

Built on the all-new Global Architecture – K (GA-K) platform, the new ES pushes the limits of design in the luxury sedan class. This ES is longer (+2.6 in), lower (-.2 in) and wider (+1.8 in.) than before with wheels that have been pushed closer to the corners thanks to a two-inch longer wheelbase and wider tracks front (+.4 in) and rear (+1.5 in). Its stance and proportions reflect its newfound performance capabilities and give the ES the kind of eye-catching appearance that will make owners take a second look as they walk away.

Lexus ES Side Profile

Project Chief Designer, Yasuo Kajino, describes the look of the ES as “provocative elegance”.

“The ES has always been an elegant luxury sedan. For this generation, we have added daring design elements that challenge the traditional expectations of buyers.”

To create a dynamic yet fluid shape, Kaijino’s team used the low hood enabled by the new ES platform to produce a distinctive silhouette emphasized by an aggressive downward slant. Up front, the ES offers two dramatically different grille designs. The standard ES 350 and the ES 300h use elegant vertical bars that radiate out from the center while the ES 350 F SPORT model adopts a blacked out pattern consisting of “L”-shaped clusters with corresponding cut outs at each corner of the fascia.

Lexus ES Front

In a break with ES models of the past, the seventh-generation design uses a fast roofline that emphasizes its lower stance and slippery aerodynamics. The rear end is clean and sharply chiseled, with LED taillamps that wrap around the quarter panels to provide a continuous styling line from any angle. F SPORT models add a rear spoiler, additional rear badging and a dark lower valance to further refine the look.

Lexus ES Rear

There are three different wheel designs (standard 17-inch, two 18-inch) for the ES 350 and ES 300h while the ES 350 F SPORT gets standard 19-inch wheels with a design similar to that found on the LC coupe.

Lexus ES Wheel

A dozen colors make up the exterior paint palette including two new shades, one green and one beige, that are anything but typical. Moonbeam Beige Metallic was designed to mimic light reflecting off fresh snow, while Sunlit Green replicates the color of ocean water brightened by the sun. F SPORT models get an exclusive Ultra Sonic Blue Mica 2.0 color that complements its high-energy design.

The Future of Lexus Interiors

When designing the look and feel of the ES’s interior, Kajino’s team started with the Lexus Future Interior concept which blends a driver-centric cockpit with a spacious and comfortable area for the front passenger. In the ES, the driver’s focus is kept on the road ahead by placing the center display screen, instrument panel and available heads up display in a tight cluster in the driver’s field of view. Front passengers, on the other hand, get a more open and spacious environment that promotes relaxation.

Lexus ES Interior Angle

Rear seat passenger comfort has long been a hallmark of the ES and the seventh-generation model still prioritizes rear package capability despite the sleeker exterior roofline. A lower hip point and a carefully configured headliner preserve headroom while the longer wheelbase delivers generous legroom.

Lexus ES Rear Seats

To create an entirely different appearance for the inside of new F SPORT model, an all-new kind of metallic cabin trim was developed that is unlike anything else Lexus has done before. Inspired by the making of a traditional Japanese sword, Hadori aluminum trim features fluctuating wave patterns that give it a three-dimensional appearance that varies depending on the viewing angle. The effect is subtle yet indicative of the level of detail and craftsmanship that Kajino’s team put into giving the F SPORT a unique place in the lineup.

Lexus Interior Trim

The standard ES 350 and ES 300h will continue to offer traditional materials like Matte Bamboo, Linear Dark Mocha and Linear Espresso wood which give the ES a hand-crafted appearance that luxury buyers expect in this category.

A New Era of Performance

The engineering team led by Yasuhiro Sakakibara had one clear goal when it came to the ES: transform the image of the ES. That meant turning a sedan known primarily for comfort and quietness into one that is equally capable of delivering class-leading handling and power that you can feel and hear.

Lexus ES Driving

According to Sakakibara, this ES was built to deliver a fundamentally higher level of performance than any of its predecessors. “We knew that this ES had to feel responsive and easy to drive, no matter what kind of road it was on and that can only be achieved with a solid foundation.”

The starting point was the newly developed GA-K chassis. It’s an exceptionally rigid front-wheel drive chassis, rivalling the GA-L rear-wheel drive platform used for the LC coupe and LS sedan in terms of torsional stiffness. Various grades of high-tensile steel reduce weight versus previous platforms while additional enhancements like an all-new multi-link rear suspension design, rack-mounted electric power steering and a V-brace mounted behind the rear seat gave the engineers the flexibility to tune the ES with a newfound level of precision.

Lexus ES Driving Again

All of the upgrades to the chassis were designed to deliver a sense of comforting predictability coupled with a feeling of quick response to every movement. Yoshiaki Ito, chief test driver for Lexus, describes the ES’s heightened level and refined definition of comfort by saying: “We want every kind of driver to feel a sense of complete control when they are behind the wheel of the ES. It’s a level of comfort that goes beyond merely delivering a smooth ride.”

For an enhanced level of dynamic performance, F SPORT models offer an Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS) similar to that found on the LC coupe. AVS adds adjustable dampers at each corner that feature 650 levels of damping force for the ultimate in control over any surface. Another F SPORT exclusive is a Sport+ mode for the Drive Mode Select system that selects the most aggressive engine, transmission and suspension settings for maximum performance. A new Engine Sound Enhancement feature is also activated in Sport+ mode that adds an additional layer of engine noise that enhances the natural rhythms of the spirited driving.

Standard V6 Power and a New 8-Speed Direct-Shift Automatic Transmission

All ES 350s are powered by a 3.5-liter V6 that is designed to deliver commanding acceleration along with an invigorating sound. With an update to D4-S fuel injection, the impressively smooth engine now develops 302 horsepower and 267 pound-feet of torque. Both of those numbers are up significantly (+34 hp, +19 lb-ft) compared to the previous generation V6.

Lexus ES Engine

In addition to the boost in power, the ES 350 also benefits from a new eight-speed Direct Shift automatic transmission. It uses an ultra-thin torque converter and a multi-plate lock up clutch to more efficiently transfer power to the front wheels, and has been tuned to deliver crisp, precisely timed shifts with quick responses. With a wider spread of ratios, the new eight speed is able to utilize high torque gears on the low end for quick starts and tall gearing on the high end for optimum efficiency.

Fourth Generation Hybrid Drive System

Not to be outdone by its gasoline siblings, the ES 300h is capable of delivering exceptional fuel efficiency, responsive performance and minimal emissions for an entry-level luxury sedan. A new, fourth-generation Hybrid Drive System couples an ultra-efficient, Atkinson cycle 2.5-liter, four-cylinder gas engine with a lighter, more compact, more power dense electric motor and self-charging hybrid system. Together they deliver a combined 215 total system horsepower and a preliminary estimate of 44 mpg in combined driving.

An all-new engine, the 2.5-liter four-cylinder incorporates fast-burn combustion technology that makes it one of the most thermally efficient engines ever offered in a Lexus. The result is more power without increasing emissions or fuel consumption. Various methods were used to achieve such impressive results including straight intake ports, increased valve angles and laser-clad valve seats. A variable capacity oil pump, multihole injectors, VVTi-E on the intake valves and a variable cooling system also contribute to the engine’s impressive heat and combustion management.

Overall drivability of the ES 300h has been improved thanks to a more sophisticated hybrid system control computer that is better able to mimic the feel and power delivery of a standard gas engine. An all- new nickel metal hydride battery is smaller than before which allows it to be mounted underneath the back seat so it doesn’t infringe on trunk space.

Unparalleled Safety Comes Standard

One element of the ES that hasn’t been radically transformed is its dedication to safety. All versions of the seventh-generation ES feature the new Lexus Safety System+ 2.0 as standard equipment. Already one of the most sophisticated systems of its kind, LSS+ 2.0 adds new features that further expand its capabilities.

Lexus ES Headlight

One such feature is daytime bicyclist detection which is part of the comprehensive Pre-Collision System (PCS). Already designed to detect an oncoming vehicle or pedestrian, the PCS system’s ability to potentially detect a bicyclist addresses a common accident scenario. PCS has also been enhanced to help better detect a pedestrian at night by increasing the radar’s sensitivity and dynamic range.

Technology That Connects and Simplifies

Staying connected has never been so important to ES owners, so there are now multiple ways to engage with technology in a safe and convenient manner. For example, the seventh-generation ES is the first Lexus product to offer Apple CarPlayTM phone functionality, enabling drivers to control their iPhones® through the dashboard display screen or with Siri Eyes Free® voice control.

Lexus ES Carplay

The ES is also Amazon Alexa®-enabled, so drivers can use natural language commands to control a variety of functions. That functionality includes car-to-home and home-to-car commands, so owners who have Alexa enabled devices in their home can interact with their ES before they ever get behind the wheel.

On board Wi-fi powered by Verizon is also available on the ES as part of an optional navigation system that includes an easy-to-read 12.3-inch wide dashboard display. Along with its on-board data set, the navigation system is also capable of receiving over-the-air updates for improved routing and the latest Points of Interest (POIs). Models without navigation will use an 8-inch display and all interactions will be controlled through the Remote Touch Interface (RTI) trackpad.

The Next Chapter of ES

When it goes on sale in September, the 2019 Lexus ES will usher in a new era for one of the brand’s most popular models. Much like the flagship LS, the new ES sedan addresses the need to engage a broader range of customers. It delivers everything that traditional Lexus buyers expect along with elements that will draw in those who haven’t considered the brand before. Bolder styling, more dynamic performance, unique cabin materials and the latest technology add a chapter to the ES story that hasn’t been told, but that all changes in 2018.

Lexus ES Specs

Comments
krew
View the original article post
krew sums it up much better than I ever could :).

@krew how was interior quality, how did it feel inside? Compared to ES, IS, GS, NX, etc? Thank you.
spwolf
I completely disagree with GS selling ES volume, it is $10k more expensive vehicle, it would not sell anywhere as close as 6x more than today.

There is no conspiracy against GS. It just got old and outdated and it seems to be too expensive for Lexus to produce so it does not make sense for them to push it when ES performs better ($10k incentives or lease deals like Q50 has).

Again, proof is in the pudding. GS internationally has pretty good powertrains, as we can see with NX and RX selling like crazy.

I too, have reached same general consensus as @Gecko, @mikeavelli, and @Carmaker1! I wholeheartedly stand by their points. I too, also mentioned exactly same thing they have said in another thread (I honestly forgot where it is LOL), however you responded the same thing like you've done to these guys. Look, to put it diplomatically, it's flat out incorrect. It is not because of the market, it was Lexus, who screwed this up in the first place.


The ultimate demise of our beloved GS, was because of Lexus' laziness and reluctance to actually put any effort into a product that will ACTUALLY make a difference. Everything is all Lexus' fault. It is not because of sales, customers, overall market or the car itself.


- They were the ones who chose to make an half-a**ed effort when developing the 4GS.

- They were the ones who didn't even give two sh*ts in terms of advertising and showing the world of what the GS is about, of what the GS is actually
capable of, that the GS...... was actually special, and not treated as the subordinate little sibling, tucked away in the corner, only for actually car enthusiasts (or Lexus Enthusiasts [pun not intended]) to recognize and take notice of the GS.

- They were the ones who allowed the damn dealers to go aimlessly loose for the ES, promote a weaker, more inferior product, that is in NO WAY close to the GS. Full stop. And what did they do? They stuffed customers into an ES and RX like damn sardines in a can, and shipped them off to oblivion.

- They were the ones who chose to display those two cars like supermodels, because they're much easier to deal with, for better or worse. I think you guys can understand what I mean by this, and I don't need to explain myself.

- They chose to fight other manufacturers by going the cheap, dirty and easy way. Make an obviously weaker product, and slash off the price. Because you know what? It's an Avalon with Lexus' internals and interior. You know what's funny? The Avalon's interior looks better. Want to know what's funnier? The Corolla Hatchback is miles better than that mess of an interior they put in the ES. It is honestly embarrassing what they're doing to themselves. I don't take back my statement either. Because I have defended everything about Lexus, but this 7ES is the biggest letdown, since forever.

- They ultimately pulverized their credentials by vaporizing the GS. If they have the audacity to blame sales, customers or even throw their damn dealers under the bus, which is obvious Lexus allowed this to happen, then they should immediately call it quits and throw in Mercedes-Benz/Porsche employees, with the exception of the Lexus takumi designers and reliability engineers. You tell me, isn't this an obvious sign that Lexus' new slogan "Experience Amazing", is through overly advertising their products into things that they're not? You know what would be easier? Actually build the real deal, to actually have the balls to truly step up, and actually fight the world's stage. The GS, LS, and IS are aspirational cars. They're cars that make you go "yeah, what an amazing car", to which I respond, they genuinely are.


It wasn't even a few weeks ago that I was defending the hell out of Lexus. But this single release of the 7ES, I am just nowhere.

- Honestly, how the hell are they actually proud of themselves, when they're BRAGGING that the ES has more rear legroom than the LS? ARE THEY ACTUALLY TRYING TO KILL THE LS? How about the lies they are stirring in terms of performance. I am actually more excited in regards to the new Corolla Hatchback than this new ES. It has been getting such amazing reviews for a Toyota, and I am proud of what they've achieved.

- What about the lackluster interior design? Don't even get me started on that. Of course quality is #1, but it looks hideous. I'd rather take the interiors from their non refreshed cars of this generation from BMW. And that's saying something.

- No AWD? Yeah. Screw you Lexus. It's so obvious that you're cost cutting even a fly with its minuscule brain can tell the mess you're in. Obviously sales are well for you guys, but the confusion you guys are stirring is beyond ridiculous.



I honestly believe this forum should put down the ES vs GS argument once and for all, for everyone's benefit. It would be much better if they slashed all RWD models and convert them to FWD. Don't worry. I'll personally support you. Just don't advertise us bs. It is hard for us to cope with the stress.

However, if we do want to keep the argument alive, there is only one solution for this. That's for Lexus to have a revolution in their lineup. You still have a chance to fix this, but boy will it take a while. I would have to create another thread of the things I think Lexus needs to do to actually be able to fight in the world's stage, once and for all.

I really apologize for these strong words that I may have used. But you can honestly understand my point of view.

In short @spwolf, my response is this. It is easy to sell and do well with an inferior car. There will be plenty of success, but they won't have an ounce of credentials. However, if they execute and honestly TRY to develop a car with the aura of specialness (is that even a word?), to work hard and stand behind their core competencies, to be sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. To try to transcend the medium and conduct something with blood, sweat, tears and NOT through being cheap. To try to actually open their coffers and spill EVERYTHING into a car, like many manufacturers, not only will they get sales, not only will everyone be happy, not only will they be successful, they will also have the credentials that they're dying to get from the world and the genuine recognition from other manufacturers. It's honestly as simple as that.

What Lexus is doing right now, my response to them is that "you can't have your cake and eat it too" by doing it this way. They need to change.
I agree with your post @F1 Silver Arrows, as that is one of the most on point criticisms I have read. I am thinking like what @Gecko had said to me, certain decision making was made so belatedly, that the ES wasn't able to be developed to replace GS with AWD and stay on time.

Problem I have is, they might try to deceptively market it as such. I will not accept that and will call them out on it. With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.
KOHIPEET
Would building the 2 litre turbo into a new hybrid engine make sense? The system could develop around 300 hp and the petrol engine could be tuned more towards fuel efficiency while they could use a Li-Ion battery to drive the electric motors.
Yes it would. Actually a turbo hybrid is the perfect combo since it hides turbo lag and improves drivability significantly.

The only downside is that a turbo ICE has lower peak thermal efficiency than a naturally aspirated one. Therefore such a hybrid system may not be optimal for fuel efficiency, but it's a HUGE step over a gas engine nonetheless.

Carmaker1
I agree with your post With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.


True, that's enough ES vs GS debate for now. We have been doing this since like two years ago and repeated the same thing again and again.
C
Why is the ES not available with AWD? And why oh why is rear legroom bigger than the LS??? I am shocked!
C
Why is the ES not available with AWD? And why oh why is rear legroom bigger than the LS??? I am shocked!
C
@krew Please compare the 2019 ES vs 2018 LS: design, dimensions, tech etc. and highlight the shocking difference:
  • ES has Carplay and Alexa. The LS doesn't!
  • ES has more legroom!
  • ES looks like the LS, at least from the front and side profile...
Many thanks
spwolf
@krew how was interior quality, how did it feel inside? Compared to ES, IS, GS, NX, etc? Thank you.
To be completely honest, the interiors were black and the cars were revealed outside at night -- getting a good sense of the interior was next to impossible. I did notice some pre-production materials around the steering wheel and on the doors as well.

I really liked the cabin overall -- like most of the new Lexus interiors, everything wraps around the driver and gives a real sense of occasion. The 12.3" screen impressed me, despite already seeing it in the LC & LS.

The one thing that's stuck with me? The ES F SPORT front seats are magnificent. Ample side bolsters, but still like sitting on a cloud. Immediately impressed.

Carmaker1
With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.
Agreed. Lexus doesn't see the ES as a GS replacement, we don't see the ES as a GS replacement. If this had been communicated up front, we could have avoided all the comparisons and appreciated the new ES for what it is.

The failures of the GS rest with the model itself and what Lexus did/didn't do to support it. Couple that with a US market that no longer interested in cars, and...

F1 Silver Arrows
In short @spwolf, my response is this. It is easy to sell and do well with an inferior car. There will be plenty of success, but they won't have an ounce of credentials. However, if they execute and honestly TRY to develop a car with the aura of specialness (is that even a word?), to work hard and stand behind their core competencies, to be sporty, yet luxurious or vise versa. To try to transcend the medium and conduct something with blood, sweat, tears and NOT through being cheap. To try to actually open their coffers and spill EVERYTHING into a car, like many manufacturers. For god's sakes, they're the most powerful manufacturer in the world. This way, not only will they get sales, not only will everyone be happy, not only will they be successful, they will also have the credentials that they're dying to get from the world and the genuine recognition from other manufacturers. It's honestly as simple as that.
@F1 Silver Arrows, you did a great job with your post -- really managed to capture the dichotomy of the ES/GS argument. The reason I quote this passage specifically is because Lexus did exactly this with the LC. All hope is not lost. :)
Thanks for all of your kind responses everyone! I value the amount of respect we have between each other and in this forum. Obviously, my slight "tirade" toward Lexus was through the culmination of feelings that we've been experiencing. I simply decided to take some time to really break down this issue. I thought it would give everyone great insight! Thanks for the love! :)

Yeah, in response to @Carmaker1, this is not something that we should ultimately give a slap on the wrist, they need to be exposed to the predicament that they've caused and not be self-absorbed into everything. I can feel for these people, because it is hard to come back out of such an issue.

To @krew, that's exactly what I want from Lexus. If they put the same effort they've did in the LC, and also LS (LS may have a few issues including the absence of the V8, but is still a great product), they would knock everything out of the park. They can afford to conduct such high levels of research and development. Even Mazda (ironically has some help from Toyota) is doing groundbreaking development in regards to their future cars. If Mazda can really push the envelope with what they can afford, Toyota can do that ten-fold (and that's probably an understatement there). I do understand the role of the accountants or I like to colloquially say "bean counters", but they need to mostly back off when it comes to these cars.

ssun30
Yes it would. Actually a turbo hybrid is the perfect combo since it hides turbo lag and improves drivability significantly.

The only downside is that a turbo ICE has lower peak thermal efficiency than a naturally aspirated one. Therefore such a hybrid system may not be optimal for fuel efficiency, but it's a HUGE step over a gas engine nonetheless.



True, that's enough ES vs GS debate for now. We have been doing this since like two years ago and repeated the same thing again and again.
Err...... why is my name highlighted?
@krew Care to explain why the ES has a longer passenger cabin than the LS? How does it have a longer legroom when the LS is 8 inches longer? I know transverse FWD platform has inherent advantage in interior space, but Lexus did waste a lot of length on that front overhang you know.
R
I have already said Wow I think looks very good, one question why is the engine bay so exposed? A lots of wiring and pump wires etc all visible surely there will be a cover over this in the production vehicles?
ssun30
Care to explain why the ES has a longer passenger cabin than the LS? How does it have a longer legroom when the LS is 8 inches longer? I know transverse FWD platform has inherent advantage in interior space, but Lexus did waste a lot of length on that front overhang you know.
LS is about 10 inch longer overall and in wheels base. Knowing the LS has its overhangs almost as long as the ES, yet having some distance between the front wheel and the front door, it loses the 10 inch length advantage, if not more, in terms of cabin length.
Carmaker1
I am thinking like what @Gecko had said to me, certain decision making was made so belatedly, that the ES wasn't able to be developed to replace GS with AWD and stay on time.
That sounds very likely, but I'm optimistically clinging to hope that, somehow, 7ES eventually gets a well-engineered AWD option during a future model year, perhaps in conjunction with either an "ES 450h" performance hybrid or even (gasp!) an ES-F. I do note, however, ssun30's observations atop page 4 of this thread that E-Four is not a good AWD system for performance applications.

Only then will ES be a truly worthy GS replacement.

Carmaker1
With that being said, I think we should try and dissolve any non-ES discussion in this thread, in order to avoid going off topic too long.
Point taken, but I do feel that I need to post some numbers which clearly show why Lexus decided to kill GS in favor of ES. A text conversation with krew last night led me to Google "2017 global Lexus sales by model", with the first result being a page on focus2move.com.

ES was, worldwide, the 3rd best-selling Lexus vehicle in 2017. Its 133,340 units sold were only exceeded by NX (148,377) and RX (163, 646). Most notably, ES was one of only 2 Lexus lines to show increased sales globally versus 2016. (ES +8% and NX +1.4%). And GS? It was #8 out of 10 Lexus lines tallied by focus2move, trailed only by RC and LS (the latter transitioning from 4th to 5th generation during 2017). Most notably, GS reported the steepest percentage drop (a 41.3% drop from 27,770 units sold globally in 2016 to 16,304 units in 2017).

With numbers like those, it's no wonder that Lexus bean counters pulled the plug on GS.
Quick little look at the ES reveal at the Beijing Motor Show

Regarding the ES and Lexus overall, I know it may not play a huge role for most, but there are some things I do not like lately. I do not exactly know how to call these details, it is not design, because it is not really style, but still something visual and technical.

1. I have already mentioned the sloppy rear window, I prefer more upright with the flatter trunk. I know aerodynamics, but on a three-box-car, it does not look good to me.

2. I usually do not like when sedans have a small glass window behind the rear door (like Audi). I prefer the way BMW, Mercedes and Lexus do it. But in this case, unlike the yet current/soon previous ES, I do not like how the trim extends behind the door, for no reason. The new LS has a windows behind, the concept was better without.


3. I prefer when the rear door line is straight rather than curved around the wheel (like BMW for example), or cuts straight through the fender ( like Lexus GX). I can accept curved around the fender like most Lexus. On the XV60 the fender line is the same one as the door shutline. If there is some distance between the fender line and the door shutline, that is fine too, maybe even better. But here it is the worst possible execution: the door line cuts through the fender line, but instead of going through the fender arc surface till the fender edge, it stops in the middle and follows the fender arc from the wrong side. This drives me mad, same thing on the new LS.
ssun30
@krew Care to explain why the ES has a longer passenger cabin than the LS? How does it have a longer legroom when the LS is 8 inches longer? I know transverse FWD platform has inherent advantage in interior space, but Lexus did waste a lot of length on that front overhang you know.


Oops, messed up the BB code. Fixed.
LS has engine behind the axle, ES has in front, this frees up wheelbase for cabin.

But also do not just read the specs... for instance I bet LS has much more relaxed seating at the back, and much nicer angle. I am 6.1" 250lbs and I have maximum comfort in front and back of LS. There is simply no way that back seat of ES is as comfortable as in LS, the angle of seat back and bottom cushion is going to be very different. Also I bet front seats of LS take up much more space.
Joaquin Ruhi
I think this post from TheNerdyPotato on the separate Toyota & Lexus Future Powertrain Discussion thread is also relevant here:



Toyota has touted its "multiple hybrid" (some fuel economy-oriented, others geared more towards performance) strategy going forward, with the European 3rd-gen Auris clearly an example of this. Outside North America, Lexus GS buyers have had a choice of an economical GS 300h or a performance GS 450h.

My point? If, indeed, ES winds up replacing the full GS line, we may well see an ES 450h with a naturally-aspirated V6 hybrid powertrain (be it the current 2GR-FXS from the RX 450h or a new variant of the V35A V6 engine family), with enthusiast-friendly tricks such as E-Four AWD and Direct Shift CVT.
I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)
Joaquin Ruhi
Point taken, but I do feel that I need to post some numbers which clearly show why Lexus decided to kill GS in favor of ES. A text conversation with krew last night led me to Google "2017 global Lexus sales by model", with the first result being a page on focus2move.com.

ES was, worldwide, the 3rd best-selling Lexus vehicle in 2017. Its 133,340 units sold were only exceeded by NX (148,377) and RX (163, 646). Most notably, ES was one of only 2 Lexus lines to show increased sales globally versus 2016. (ES +8% and NX +1.4%). And GS? It was #8 out of 10 Lexus lines tallied by focus2move, trailed only by RC and LS (the latter transitioning from 4th to 5th generation during 2017). Most notably, GS reported the steepest percentage drop (a 41.3% drop from 27,770 units sold globally in 2016 to 16,304 units in 2017).

With numbers like those, it's no wonder that Lexus bean counters pulled the plug on GS.
I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.
TheNerdyPotato
I was curious to see how much the hypothetical "ES450h" would cost so I looked at the difference between the RX350 and RX450h and Highlander V6 vs Hybrid. Going by MSRP, the RX came with a $2,424 hybrid premium and the Highlander with a $2,595 premium. ES has a $2,810 premium to upgrade to a smaller, less powerful motor. Going from a Camry LE 4cyl to a Hybrid LE is +$3,800, which is more understandable due to 4cyl vs 4cyl.

What this brings to my attention is that, IMO, the ES has a pricing problem. Maybe it's hidden in the margins on the larger vehicles, or the V6 hybrid system is somehow less expensive than the 4cyl, but this just seems off to me.

(all prices listed in USD based on 2018 models)
New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.
spwolf
e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.
Agreed, which is why I brought up the old HybridR concept with 120hp on the rear axle.
spwolf
New premium is likely going to be $1k, like in Avalon. Lexus has reduced hybrid premiums in NX, RX in past few months and Toyota has done it in new Avalon too.

They did not change ES price since new one is coming in few months.
Oh, good. I hadn't kept up with it in a long time.
spwolf
I am going to go step ahead and complain why is not Lexus investing even more money into ES. As you can see by those sales stats, ES is their sedan sales leader by far, and it wasnt even a worldwide vehicle... I can see ES selling over 200k worldwide and its design and features need to be priority for Lexus.

I do think that those rumors of 2.5t for ES are true, and lets hope it brings AWD with it too. It is not really for my market here in Europe, but it would be nice worldwide.

450h powertrain would be overkill for ES, especially since it would need real awd which would then bring down mpg a lot.

e-Four system with 40hp at the back is not going to change things dynamically for ES... it is useful for SUVs when starting up on icy incline and low speed snow runs so you dont get stuck, but it is not performance awd.
ES needs AWD not for performance, but just for grip in winter. Most sold AWD CUVs are not performance oriented.
Car Fan
  • ES has Carplay and Alexa. The LS doesn't!
Well Corolla has CarPlay too? :).

I also bet that LS will actually get CarPlay sooner than ES? But they cant say that since it would make people wait for it.
krew
Lexus doesn't see the ES as a GS replacement, we don't see the ES as a GS replacement. If this had been communicated up front, we could have avoided all the comparisons and appreciated the new ES for what it is.

The failures of the GS rest with the model itself and what Lexus did/didn't do to support it. Couple that with a US market that no longer interested in cars, and...
That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun). Lexus never gave any hints that that was going to be the case, and it's pretty silly to hold them to something they never said would be the case. If I made a thread where we all decided the next IS should transform into a humanoid robot that looks like Akio Toyoda we can't very well be angry at Lexus when that doesn't happen.

The 7ES taken strictly as a new ES looks to me like another home run. I still wouldn't be surprised if they introduced some sort of AWD version a bit later (maybe at the refresh) because it's such an obvious thing for many markets (parts of the US and all of Canada and Russia). As @Levi said it doesn't need to be performance AWD, just "move the car when it's in snow" AWD.
Ian Schmidt
That's what kind of annoys me about the pages of GS rage that precede this: the whole "ES will be designed to also be a GS replacement" was made up out of thin air by the Internet (and yeah, I participated, and yeah it was fun).
There's a thin line between "the ES is replacing the GS" and "the GS is being cancelled and the ES will remain", and we all tripped over it. :joy:
With all that been said, I think currently Toyota has a better Idea of what they are aiming for in their Line up. The new corolla and Rav 4 is a testament to this.
As for Lexus IMO everything released this Year is just a placeholder. Lets put something new out there for now to keep the cash flowing in while figure out all this mess. Lets start from the RXL (why not wait for the RX redesign to build a proper RXL from scratch?) LX 2 row (Lets make more money flow in. GX owner can upgrade also) LS (even though it's new we can all agree there is something incomplete about it. Be it legroom, car play, engine name it. I still feel like there is a V8 somewhere for the LS and I hope is not just for an LSF). I actually like the new ES for what it is and not a GS replacement.

So IMO 2020 is the year to be on the lookout for when talking about significant expectation from Lexus (Tokyo 2020)

sorry to bring up GS again here. I think GS is a car with it's own mind and it as always find a way to come back stronger (we know the story of the GS 400 that started the HP war. 2006 GS 3.0 engine -- 2007 GS 3.5 engine that sent a message to its competitor 2007 GS450H well you know about that car. 2007 GS430 -- 2008 GS460. fast forward to 2012 GS was missing. came back in 2013 best handling in class and may be top three interior in class also )
with that been said, and Lexus been mute about anything GS. I think anything is possible with the GS.
C
  • C
    CIF
  • May 2, 2018
I know this isn't adding much, but I would just like to say I never believed the GS was going to get totally cancelled. The many heated discussions over the GS being cancelled that have happened here (which has never been confirmed at all) remind me of the rumor that appeared during 4GS development that many people believed (and some still do). The famous rumor years ago that during 4GS development, Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS completely. This was never fully substantiated, and even Akio Toyoda himself in an obscure interview confirmed it was never his intention. He only implied to the development team of the 4GS he considered cancelling it because initial 4GS efforts left him disappointed. That implication lit a symbolic fire under the development team, and the result was the 4GS that we actually got to market, with its class-leading chassis and excellent interior.

Throughout Toyota Motor Company's history, cancelling a model line completely has always been extremely rare. Let's look on the Lexus side. The SC was never completely cancelled. It reappeared as the 2nd gen SC, and more recently it has "reappeared" in a reimagined way as the LC. Let's be honest, the LC is the spiritual successor to the SC. The CT was never truly cancelled, as it lives on in other overseas markets. The HS is the only model that one can argue was truly cancelled. Yet on the other hand, it is also arguable that the CT is extremely similar to the HS, and that the HS possibly lives on through the CT.

This new ES is great as an ES. Love the rear seat details, the wood and leather steering wheel, and the different color options. Also did anyone else catch the Shimomoku and bamboo wood available as options? Love that some LS options have now appeared on the ES. The F-Sport interior in all black looks really bland, I agree. Also really like the exterior. I eagerly await further details in a full press release. Not surprised no new V6, looks like the TNGA workhorse V6 engine isn't ready yet. It will debut somewhere soon enough, just not now. Likely on a mid-cycle refresh, or simply some new generation. I don't get some of the criticism of the details of the car. If you're expecting an LS for ES money, that's absolutely impossible. If you expect an LS, well that already exists. For ES money though, this new ES is really excellent.

As for the GS, what will I think will happen personally with the 5GS? I think it will go on hiatus, and then reappear as a further upmarket '4-door coupe' type sedan. I think it's likely the GS will lose its traditional shape. The 3GS hinted at a '4-door coupe' look, but that model was too small, impractical, and the styling didn't fully work. If they grow the GS from 4GS size, they can make a very elegant, very unique high-end midsize prestige sedan.
I think in GS context 'cancel' meant no imminent direct replacement, no prototype spyshots. If Lexus wants to remain what it is, no one on here doubts the possibility of it returning, like the LC, but just not today, unless Lexus pulls out Acura and Infiniti strategy, which would be dumb.
bogglo
With all that been said, I think currently Toyota has a better Idea of what they are aiming for in their Line up. The new corolla and Rav 4 is a testament to this.
As for Lexus IMO everything released this Year is just a placeholder. Lets put something new out there for now to keep the cash flowing in while figure out all this mess. Lets start from the RXL (why not wait for the RX redesign to build a proper RXL from scratch?) LX 2 row (Lets make more money flow in. GX owner can upgrade also) LS (even though it's new we can all agree there is something incomplete about it. Be it legroom, car play, engine name it. I still feel like there is a V8 somewhere for the LS and I hope is not just for an LSF). I actually like the new ES for what it is and not as GS replacement.

So IMO 2020 is the year to be on the lookout for when talking about significant expectation from Lexus (Tokyo 2020)
There is no place holders, this is what we get.

I am not sure what exactly do you expect in 2020 Tokyo - 2.5 years from now? LS and LC will still be the same, just with Car Play... Maybe IS?
spwolf
There is no place holders, this is what we get.

I am not sure what exactly do you expect in 2020 Tokyo - 2.5 years from now? LS and LC will still be the same, just with Car Play... Maybe IS?
No LF-1 before 2020?

L
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