Spied: Is Lexus Developing a Four-Door Coupe?

Not a GS-F, but possibly GS-based 4-door coupe SC.

Yes your remarks make a great deal of sense. Also with the extension of wheel base length on many Toyota/Lexus Models....we can be sure that the next Generation LS Flagship will have a lengthened one as well. I'm hoping for 124-125 inch length similar to the Germans, over the 122 inch now. Longer wheelbase and more width to tire size over the 7.5 to 8.0 width. LEXUS is moving fast in the right direction.....get's me excited....

Yes agreed. I expect the the next-gen LS to increase in wheelbase, length and width. Not only to better compete with the Germans, but also to further differentiate itself from the GS. I also expect the long-wheelbase model to further grow in length as well.

No, Lexus is not going to utilize a GS-body to test 5LS components. It's not as if the LS is an all-new model addition, like what is being tested. It's a strictly a 4-door coupe. The only test mule to be utilized for an LS redesign is the current XF40.

It has been done many times in the last few years.....what TRD mentioned is all true facts......these photos and articles that show them are out there....dig and you shall find.

I believe you are a tad confused. My point above is that the only a components test vehicle for an LS successor would be an LS, not a GS-based mule. His alternative theory isn't sensible. They are not all 100% true facts. I know very well about such things (more than he does), so I have no idea what you are getting at. I also work in this industry and have closely observed Toyota's development patterns. I am clearly negating the possibility of this having any relation to the 5LS. It cannot be, simple as that. One saw XF21 LS400-based test mules in 1999, LS430-base mules in June 2005(prototypes-Q4 2005), and likely LS460-based mules later this year. The 5LS will not be based on an extended nor altered L10 platform.

Really? Are you employed by Toyota Motor Corporation? Can you really be so adamant with 100% confidence, or are you merely making assumptions? There is heavy camouflage, and likely fake cladding and fake body panels on the prototype pictured above. Unless you admit that you work for ToMoCo, and are privy to confidential information, you cannot say with any certainty what that above model is. Regardless of whether or not you work in the industry, this post shows that you are not fully familiar with Toyota's testing routines. Toyota and Subaru both had early prototype mules of the FR-S/BR-Z tested in this strange WRX body: http://www.tune86.com/sites/default/files/subaru_toyota_ft86_coupe_test_mule_death_valley_3.jpg Yet according to your comment, this cannot be possible for Toyota. But it is. This is very similar to what I mentioned above, where Toyota had an early development mule of the IS F, being tested under a strange Toyota Crown body.

Excuse me? I never directly alluded to have worked for Toyota, so I'm not sure what you are getting at. I work for another company and I'm merely making heavily studied observations. I have interned in past at Toyota before my current job. My primary focal point is, an LS mule/prototype will not find itself in a non-LS body. I disagreed with you, as that vehicle above isn't related to the LS nor can it be with such a short rear end. The Lexus LS (XF40) shares no platform with any other Toyota product. This looks like something spotted on Toyota J.K.K. grounds in Aichi and has a highly unfamiliar rear end for a Lexus, that seems similar to many 4-door coupes. I do not care about FT86/BRZ or IS-F mules, the former were not existing models with directly incumbent predecessors(XF10, XF20, XF30). 2IS prototypes were already being tested with V8 engines in early 2005(below), before the Crown test mule you speak of in December 2005(below). None of those are as bespoke nor as heavily engineered as the LS anyway, in not being large RWD flagship luxury saloons. Only RWD and luxury may apply to the IS-F and only the former to the FT86/BRZ. Did you see Toyota testing the LFA in Toyota brand production bodies, especially being an all-new Lexus model? No you certainly did not. At Jaguar Land Rover, there's no way our lead engineer and development programme management will approve the use of a handmade X250 XF-body shell to test the X360 (next XJ) components. Hence, we currently utilize X351 XJ body shells until X360 prototypes begin construction later this year. This is strictly a non-LS mule/prototype, but can be almost anything else. I do have to question your rather antagonistic line of questioning with no true merit. I realize that I can probably relate this name to a volatile, reprimanded user at Club Lexus, that has since disappeared.

Your observations are wrong. I'm not trying to be rude, but just pointing out the facts. You are getting awfully antagonistic and personal with this post, it seems my comments have somehow gotten under your skin for some reason. What I'm getting at is that because you do not work for Toyota, you absolutely do NOT know what is underneath the shell of the strange prototype above. Hands down, bar none, you cannot keep making such definitive statements about the LS. You yourself have confirmed you do not work for Toyota, so therefore you have largely invalidated your own argument as you do not have concrete proof as to the specifics of the prototype we're discussing. You simply do not know, and your guess is no better than mine. The fact that you're even arguing so seriously over a mere guess and alternative theory of mine certainly is strange to say the least. You bringing up that you interned for Toyota has no relevance either to this discussion. What division of Jag/LR do you work for? Your comments seem quite puzzling for someone who works at a car company. Then again, if you work in a non-mechanical and non-engineering division of your company, then that would put your comments more in context. Toyota with many of their next-generation models is moving to a next-generation modular platform architecture. The coming 5LS is likely to use this architecture. Since Toyota's new platform architecture is more flexible, it makes it easier to use more unusual prototypes for testing. You may not care about IS F prototypes, but the pictures I was mentioning, and that you posted, further lend credibility to my alternative theory and further invalidate your definitive statements that the above prototype absolutely can't be a test bed for the 5LS. The early IS F prototype with the Toyota Crown shell, if you look closely at the details doesn't "fit" the body of a 2IS. The trunk section is too long, the front wheel to front door gap is slightly different, and the window line differs. Your entire argument about the LS falls apart. That early IS F "Toyota Crown" prototype doesn't match the production IS F body nor its proportions because it was an early prototype, so there was no production body to speak of at that point that needed to be tested. So obviously trunk sections and other aspects are irrelevant, as that was an early, purely mechanical prototype made with no considerations for the body dimensions or production body proportions. There are numerous possibilities here; the above prototype indeed, may not be related at all to the 5LS. It may also be testing the 5LS chassis and suspension, but not the 5LS body. It may be only testing select mechanical parts from the 5LS or another future Lexus model. Again the possibilities are numerous. Just because Jaguar tests a certain way does not mean at all that it applies whatsoever to Toyota. You're making a huge leap of faith and a textbook fallacy. This is simple common sense; using a bit of measuring and looking at angles and proportions, the above prototype looks as if they took a 4GS and stretched it length-wise tremendously. If this is a prototype for a 4 door coupe, that's going to be an *extremely* long "4 door coupe", almost to the point of comical. The wheelbase is far too long for it to be a true 2 door coupe. Whatever it is that's being tested, it is most definitely a 4 door. Your disparaging personal remarks and attempt at slander are very disrespectful and sad on your part. This is not Club Lexus; this is Lexus Enthusiast. I have nothing to say about Club Lexus or any of your disparaging remarks because this is a different site and community here.

I can see some of your points regarding Toyota moving to a new platform, since of course the majority of Toyota prototypes, the public will not see till near launch compared to the likes of BMW Group and Daimler AG. They utilize Shibetsu for that, despite some arguments it isn't proper real-world testing. I've taken a personal interest in future production vehicles from various automotive corporations over the years and have closely studied their development methods. That lead me to where I am now. When possible, I've spoken to other automotive engineers and designers off the record to a degree, in not being media personnel and after conclusion of their development projects (Yo Hiruta told me about the XF40 design process during 2002-2004). I specifically referred to your unfortunate record regarding inflammatory sarcasm and incivility towards others, as clearly you still cannot refrain from turning certain aspects personal yourself. I work in product development at Jaguar Land Rover, so your supposed belief that I somehow do not fit your opinionated vision of an engineer is completely bollocks. That in the first place, is not even your business. My university achievements and work in the field have already spoken for me, so your dismal opinion on that front is equally irrelevant. It recalls similarly of your many slanderous "Hyundai accusations" towards me, something other individuals (sans one oversensitive admin) were respectful enough to refrain from doing, in having no merit. Again, remember you are not authority on everything Toyota related and should take note of that. I base my own information on deep research and not merely information above the surface. I'm sure you do deep research as well and I will try to remember not to get so ahead of myself, as Toyota/Lexus isn't Jaguar nor Land Rover where genuine information is readily accessible to me. Clearly the Japanese guard their information very well, so that makes many things muddled to an outsider like me. Didn't even know about the new modular platform architecture actually. Nowadays, such "curious" questions of mine to the likes of Toyota employees, are impossible and possibly illegal along the lines of corporate espionage.

Thank for a somewhat more respectable and mature reply. I don't pretend to understand the methods and procedures of other automakers, nor I do pretend to know absolutely everything about Toyota. I have followed and studied Toyota for a very long time however so I do know a few things. Yeah I'm sure that each automaker tests a little bit differently (with some maybe a lot differently) and they all have their own procedures and testing steps as well as testing secrets and safeguards that they go through. Yes the Japanese, and Toyota specifically are famous for guarding their secrets well. Yeah the new modular platform architecture debuts next year; well according to Toyota, the first vehicle with the TNGA (Toyota New Global Architecture) debuts next year.

Okay, that's understandable. I've gotten a bit ahead of myself in the last few years and should remember use keywords such as "possibly" or "might..." when referring to foreign, relatively unknown developments. That is very great viewpoint, as I do muddle up here and there development standards of other companies. For instance, in being a design aficionado(sadly not a designer) and engineer, I learned as a student that Toyota pioneered shorter development lead times. A vehicle's development used to take on average 40+/- months from final design freeze to production, not including initial concept development that preceded it by 2-3 years. This required designs to have a greater longevity. Toyota can now manage 18 months on most products, unlike at Jaguar where some of our past vehicles had 4-year interval instead(by June 1999, 2003 X350 XJ was mostly done). According to Hiruta-san, the LS460 design was finalized in its entirety between Q4 2003 and Q3 2004. This photo taken in late 2004 was just months after the final XF40 LS freeze occurred (1:1 scale model), for something due in October 2006. The new MB S-Class was finalised in 2009, barely arriving in July 2013. At Jaguar, I've seen we've been doing much better on this front compared to the '70s-early 2000s. The new F-Type roadster was delivered within 25 months. The new LS is terribly delayed for the most mysterious reasons (aside from natural disaster) and this refresh may have been planned pre-disaster (18-month facelift lead time).

Toyota had very short development times in the 2000s, as you point out. However that led to some quality issues. Toyota has actually gone back to their roots by slowing down development times. They want to remain the leader in quality and reliability so that is why development times have slowed down, and the amount of real-world testing has increased. That is exactly the reason why the next-gen 5LS is taking so long. They want to ensure they do an excellent job on it. The 4LS since debut has had some uncharacteristic-for-Lexus quality problems. Nothing drastically major, but still serious enough because it's the Lexus flagship. To remain competitive, Toyota has moved to more significant refreshes or mid-cycle updates. Examples of this are the recent refreshes of the LX, GX, CT and LS.

Oh, didn't see your reply. Good that they've taken longer on development, as it helps in my "case" against "copy" accusations and will only strengthen them. Makes it harder for detractors to say "Lexus copied blah blah...", when a design was finalized 24-30 months ahead of production and well before a competitor's unveiling. Shorter lead times have made fingerpointing towards Asian automakers much easier from ignorant bystanders. At a young age, I stressed learning development lead times and deadlines, as it helps to diffuse such stupid copy cat accusations with facts. The amount of accusations to our new L405 Range Rover were ludicrous regarding the Ford Explorer. At this rate, it sounds as if at most, 7 years would be the amount of time invested in a new LS. Still very dependent on actual launch date(early 2015 vs late 2015/early 2016). Hopefully trademarks for "LS###", start being filed soon to give an idea. XF40 trademarks were filed 18 months ahead of production start in early 2005, so why nothing yet in early 2014?

Yeh and another example would be the Toyota Highlander. To me, the production looked nothing like spy shots when it came to the shape.

Not true at all. The disguise vinyl and extra panels only makes it seem that way. That was a full prototype for the Highlander, not a test mule. This Lexus might be more than a test mule.

I know but the car is still shaped differently even as a prototype. Of course a test mule is going to look even more different.

Lexus does have models like the RX, GX, and LX you know...?

Yes, but: Where I live there is no GX and LX. And the RX is insanely expensive due to huge taxes on the heavy SUV pigs with barndoor aeodynamics. So no, those three cars are no option.

Well, MT! What about buying a used RX450h below 20k? ;) Space enough for your family. ;)

Oh dang that sucks! The ES is actually very roomy! Try that!

There is no ES in my country. And the cheapest used RX450s go for 25k€ which is 34k$. And they cost you about 4k$ a year in taxes and insurance because of the high hp rating. So this is not really an option.

Really? I thought the ES was one of the only Lexus models that's available everywhere. I'm sorry!

No, it is CT, IS, GS, LS, RX end of story. That is five models total. :-(

You mean being strictly a 4-seater? It could be an interesting take and offer rear luxury/infotainment equipment, along the lines of the Aston Martin Rapide and Porsche Panamera.

The wheelbase looks too long for this to be the new SC. That mule has a significantly longer wheelbase than the GS.

How do you not know that Lexus might be planning to resurrect the SC as a four coupe and surpass the original 2-door with a production LF-LC?

Compare the proportions of this to the Mercedes CLS and Audi A7. The proportions on this are way off. Common sense immediately tells you that something is "off" about that above prototype. The above prototype seems way too long and out-of-proportion compared to a CLS and Audi A7. So even for a "four door coupe", the above prototype looks strange.

Yes I wanted to mention that earlier and left before adding that. That is a segment of Luxury-Sport in which the market is accepting very well. This would also add yet another segment to add market share. The comment from LEXUS that the growth will come from adding more upscale Luxury rather than going lower like MB. BMW & AUDI are doing by introducing below 32K price range. LEXUS has the right theory and it will win in the long run.

Yep, that's likely what it is.

This was actually seen before the RC-F was revealed.