Next Generation Lexus LS to be Offered with V6 Hybrid?


2103 Lexus LS

AutoGuide is reporting that the next-generation Lexus LS hybrid will focus on fuel efficiency rather than delivering high-end V12 power:

Lexus, however, has instead used electricity as an added boost to its gasoline motors, providing additional power while retaining modest fuel economy. The result are cars like the GS450h, which delivers performance equal to that of a V8, but with V6 fuel efficiency.

The problem says Lexus ES and LS product planner Ketan Renade is that sales are extremely slow. “We did studies and focus groups and people said, ‘hybrid equals mpg’”, says Renade. “Cars with 400 and 500 hp are great, but no one is buying them.”

The ES isn’t the exception either, but the new rule, with Renade nearly confirming a decision to axe the LS600 in favor of a less-potent hybrid powertrain. Speaking with AutoGuide at the recent ES launch, he said that, “If we did a future hybrid Lexus LS, it would go V6 hybrid.”

This is great news — for Lexus to maintain its position as the top hybrid luxury brand in the world, the technology needs to be accessible, and the $112k USD LS 600hL doesn’t really fit in that equation. Utilizing a V6 hybrid powertrain in the next-generation LS is something that makes sense, especially if it can reach similar fuel economy numbers to the new GS 450h (31 mpg combined).

Another point to consider is that a LS V6 hybrid will be extremely important in markets outside of North America, particularly in the parts of Europe where Lexus is moving to a hybrid-only lineup.

Definitely think this is a smart move — what do you think, do you want to see a LS 450h?

[Source: Autoguide]

Comments


  • Wooski

    Lexus must do this IMHO.  Look at the huge sales of the S350 diesel and 730d in Europe.  The LS must be allowed to compete with these cars.

  • http://www.facebook.com/LexusandThePursuit WorldofLuxury

    aw… I miss how Lexus used to market their hybrids as performance cars! They even labeled them as “performance hybrids” on lexus.com for awhile!

  • http://www.facebook.com/LexusandThePursuit WorldofLuxury

    Does this leave room for a proper LS F?! :D

  • brian jou

    For the Flag ship sedan I’m sure they can design an engine with performance and great mpg, go turbo like most companies are now doing. Hope Lexus realizes that sooner or later or there going to get left behind in the mpg for there gas powered cars. Use some carbon fiber to save some weight in all it is a flag ship sedan…

  • Ramiro

    and dont think it leaves room for a LS-F and a LS 450H doenst seem right at all, they where upscaling with the new ES please dont go back…

  • Jerry

    An LS450h would be great–as long as the LS600hL is replaced with a real V12. Ideally, the line up should look like this: 

    LS460/460L 
    LS450h/450hL 
    LS600L (V12) 
    LS F (LWB) 

    Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc all have models like this. Lexus can’t focus on one market (eco conscious buyers) while neglecting another (performance buyers). 

  • Jake

    This sir told the truth.

    Hybrids are just about fuel economy. People don’t understand that hybrid engines can also be used for performance cars as we have seen in the previous Lexus hybrid cars generations. But the key point is that if Lexus wants to offer their hybrid line up as a alternative to the traditional petrol engines or the new diesel, they must prioritize fuel economy and MPG over performance data.

  • KiwiLexus

    Makes sense to offer a smaller displacement V6 I guess. It’s interesting to note that Lexus is the only luxury brand that has kept its flagship line exclusively V8 so far! BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and Porsche all offer 6 cylinder in their flagship saloons and you can even get a four cylinder S-Class (S250 Bluetec) in Europe. I reckon it’s neat that Lexus has kept the LS V8 only, but alas, it’s not a sustainable option to increase sales of the LS.

  • Alex

    “All-hybrid lineup in Europe”?? Wow Lexus must not want sales.. wake up, Lexus, it’s diesels people want, not hybrids!

  • Brendan

    They could and they should. The power train is essentially already developed (GS 450h).

    I wouldn’t even mind seeing a LS 350 with the GS 350 power train. No one needs 380hp in that car. It’s awesome to have it, but if you were saving $5,000-$8,000 by choosing the V6, it’d be worth it. A 300 hp V6 would be more than ample. The LS 460 (with V8 power train) is only ~350lbs heavier than a 2000 era LS 400 which had 290 hp. Pretty comparable, in my opinion. Fuel economy would also likely be improved, especially if they adapted the 8-speed auto for use with V6’s. (The should do 8-speeds, anyways!) 
    If Lexus is afraid of using a gasoline V6 in the LS, how about a 4.0 V8 ~330 hp (based on the current UR), a 3.5 V6 hybrid ~330 hp (from the GS 450h), and a 5.0 V8 ~400 hp (from the LS 600/ IS F – UR). 

  • LexusLVR

    Good idea.

    They should also offer a V6 diesel and a simple gasoline V6 for other markets along witht he V6 Hybrid and perhaps a V12 for prestige reasons. Potential customers need more engine choices. The European brands offer their clients engine choices. Lexus needs to do the same. Luxury to different people means different things. Some want performance, others want efficiency. Lexus has to adapt to these demands.

  • Brendan

    “Luxury to different people means different things. Some want performance, others want efficiency. Lexus has to adapt to these demands.”
    Well said.

  • BOSS

    I’d like to see a V6 hybrid and also keep something high end like the 600h in limited quantities for those who want to spend the extra dough.

  • Lexus LFA

    The Lexus LS is Lexus’s flagship so I’m sure they could engineer something that had high power as well as high MPG

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AVBALQBRIEZAYIYBYLPL6TUC5M buddy

    Isn’t this why they invented the F-sport? For performance go for f-sport for efficiency go with the non f-sport.

  • Brock Lee

    While technically more challenging – an idea would be to have the electric motor work in a dual manner.  When running in Eco mode, the electric motor would do more of the propulsion and the combustion engine can be disengaged to maximize full economy.  When in Power mode, the two would be coupled together for added power/torque.  This has been done before in various forms by other companies.  Best of both worlds.  Real question for me is can Lexus do it in a cost effective manner to justify such R&D and tooling to make it happen.

  • BlackDynamiteNY

    My problem with that is:  

    1.  Mercedes is already doing that with the S400 Hybrid.  They should research how effectively that model is selling.  Is that a winning formula?
    2.  The LS will weigh considerably more than the GS, which will drop the EPA MPG.  If they can get 30 MPG combined, it makes sense 
    3.  But why pay for the LS over the GS450h, if they will have the same powertrain, speed, and EPA?

    I think they learned their lesson with the AWD.  Between that and hybrid motors, it adds too much weight.

    I expect the next LS to weigh between 4200 (Base car SWB) and 4500 lbs (Hybrid LWB)
    That’s still 350 lbs more than a GS450h.  Getting the same MPG and performance from a bigger, heavier car will be a neat trick, but not impossible for Lexus….
    BD

  • Joshd

    It make sense sort of, but I feel like lexus is making the new ES more of a lower end LS with the increased leg room etc.  I could see making the next LS more exclusive. (more dollars) I think if they can still give it some power but deliver more on the MPG lexus will go that way with premium  gas is expensive.  

  • BlackDynamiteNY

    I also expect The New LS to start at $75k, $80k for the LWB

    And 400 HP.
    BD

  • Alex Sunders

    If only this report were true…sadly, it is not.

  • Rarmour

    Is there a date for the next-gen LS?

  • http://www.facebook.com/RDS.Alphard Yong Thian Ding

    Hope Lexus could made LS350 too , because LS460 have really bad sales in Malaysia … thanks to expensive road tax (people rather get 735i or S350) .

  • MT

    The S400 Hybrid isn’t selling at all. While I see S-classes every day i just once saw an S400 Hybrid. In that range of cars in Europe: no diesel, no sell. They can make the V6 hybrid as efficient as a Prius and it still won’t sell more than half a dozen per year as a grand total across Europe. Stupid thing is: They just don’t get that fact.

  • two-lexus household

    I am not so sure about a V-6 in an LS.  The whole point of that V-8 is the smoothness that is literally unmatched by anything on the road.  It’s what gives the LS that whoosh feel.  On the other hand, the LS has been more than powerful enough since the 260 hp 400 V-8.  Now if Lexus could make a really high-mileage hybrid V-8 instead of the are-you-kidding 600h, I think people would go for it—especially if it could operate in some super-quiet all eletric mode in certain urban settings.

  • Hansen9657

    Lexus should consider a LS 300h (2.5 V6 & 8-Speed), LS 350 (3.5 V6 & 8-Speed), LS 600h (5.0 V8 & 8-Speed) and LS F-Sport (5.0 V8 & 8-Speed). With 8-Speed, it certainly helps to improve MPG. In addition, the intensive use of aluminium and carbon fiber to bring down weight is another aspect they can consider. I hope Lexus will continue to develop “performance hybrid” series and offer them to those who look for a more advance power unit than the conventional turbo charged.

  • Joe

    @Alex
    For Europe: diesel is the past, petrol hybrid is the future! 
    Diesel will only get more expensive and emission regulations are going against diesel.  It is true that diesel is still selling much more at this moment (up to 90% in some countries in certain segments), but mentality is changing slowly.  Diesel will continue to be useful only for drivers who travel long distances every day.  So, the Lexus choice for petrol hybrid as only available technology next to full petrol F-mark is a perfect strategy and gives the brand a huge advance compared to the competition.

    Concerning the LS: it is a request since several years already to have the 450h engine available as second option in the LS range.  However, an update version of the 600h should still be available as well.  Just for the image :-)

  • Fsdj

    Uhmm turbo does not give you good fuel economy at all..

    In fact look at German’s, they’re also adopting Hyrbid technology slowly across their range..

    No reason what so ever for a turbo or forced induction, Toyota made a Supercharged version of the Aurion called the Aurion TRD but it has been pulled of the market. The V6’s in the Lexus & Toyota are able to compete and exceed to best of the best and our V6’s (2GR-FE & 2GR-FSE) are approaching 8-yrs of age.. They they’re the most efficient smooth, refined & powerful.. And most reliable.. 

  • F1

    $5000 is well worth for that V8 :D

  • F1

    Exactly!

    The LS is the flagship, it should have the flagship engine and everything else..

    The V6, which the 2GR-FE & 2GR-FSE are the best engines (6 cylinders) available today are well suited for the entry & mid-level cars.. 

    the 2GR-FE is an extraordinary piece of engineering, extremely smooth, refined & velvety in operation..

    Camry V6 (2GR-FE)  0-60mph in 5.8sec! 

  • LF_EH

    There are some great comments here.

    Great discussion!

  • MT

    I disagree. Diesel might not be the future, but it definitely isn’t the past. If you now sell cars in some segments with 80+% diesel engines, then this is your main way to earn money.

    Just relying on the fact that 10 years down the road hybrids will start to be of any economical relevance in Europe is not going to give you the money to develop those future cars. 

    There is no reason whatsoever besides not wanting to sell cars for Toyota of not putting the 4,5 D-4D V8 Twin-Turbo Diesel from the Landcruiser in the LS.

    In the LC the 1VD-FTV gives 50% more torque, and offers 40% better fuel efficiency than the 1UR-FE. The engine is there, the car is there and the market is there.

  • Erich Kerner

    i agree.. it should be no question whether the next generation LS needs a V6 hybrid. Of course! Like other people already said – different engines for each market. But Lexus should keep the LS 600h as an “hybrid performance model” in there lineup.

  • Joe

    As a brand in it’s ‘legimity phase’ building awareness on communicating for years now purely on hybrid technology, it would be a complete non sens to start now with powerful but noisy and polluting diesels.  As if you would all of a sudden completely deny the very own brand USP’s. 
    I don’t disagree that the European market is still a diesel market right now, but it is fundamentally changing.  The V8 diesel engine you refer at is a complete no go in Europe with way too high CO2 emissions.
    On top of this: there is no way that Toyota diesel technology can compete with any of the German 3 diesel engines.  Since 15 years Toyota is investing in petrol hybrid technology, not in diesel technology unlike the European brands. 

    As a good example of failure: just look at the debacle of Infiniti in Europe… they try to convince European customers with European diesel engines (Renault in this case), but have CO2 figures that are way too high compared to the German competitors.  And so they sell peanuts. 

    In Europe Lexus Hybrid models are positioned as diesel competitors.  Lexus in Europe will never achieve sales figures like BMW but that is not the target either.  In Europe Lexus will stay small and exclusive, but has to sell more to be able to survive…  Therefore it needs more engines per model, but only if they can be class leading in CO2 related to performance.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    That’s the biggest thing about the LS getting a V6 hybrid — without it, Lexus is conceding most of the European flagship market.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    It definitely opens the door for a high performance LS, especially if the LS 600h is actually discontinued (which would surprise me — that V8 hybrid is a dedicated powertrain not used in any other model).

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Well, Toyota does have the 1GZ-FE V12 used in Century — but it only delivers 310 hp and would need a significant boost in order to compete.

    Opens up an interesting discussion — what would power the LS F?

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    I think Lexus can have it both ways — one hybrid model prioritizing fuel economy and one that focuses on performance. In my mind, the LS 600hL tried to straddle the line rather than take it to the extreme in one direction.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    At one time, I appreciated that the LS was V8 only, but now it makes very little sense considering the power & smoothness available in a V6.

    (I no longer subscribe to the idea that the engine type — 4-cyl, V6, V8 — defines whether a car can be considered a luxury model.)

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Judging from discussions on this site, I would say putting a V6 (no hybrid) in the LS is a very contentious idea — but one that I agree with 100%. As I mentioned in an earlier comment, I no longer believe that the engine type — 4-cyl, V6, V8 — defines the status of a vehicle, and would rather see more options than watch Lexus subscribe to some old-world luxury mindset.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Excellent comment, and one that I hope Lexus is paying attention to.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    This brings up a good point — if hybrids mean fuel efficiency and performance is F Sport, then what’s the message behind the standard petrol engines?

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    I want to see Lexus take it further, with a high-end LS F to compete with the S AMG.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    I’d like to see this as well — ECO mode in a Lexus right now is very conservatively programmed, and it would be great to see the the battery power used more aggressively.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/WGWI3V455RIPSWLRMDXILQNT2E Walter

    Very easy: lexus must develop an artkeson cycle V8 engine an mat it to the electric motor This will give them the power and economy they want. Note: i haven’t even got into lithium battries yet. lethium battries would make the LS light on gas, lighter then the GS. Toyota is leading this game some light years ahead. they just play it safe. 

  • Jake

    I agree with you.

    I mean, there are MPG hybrid and performance hybrid. This one will have engines such as the third generation of Lexus Hybrid Drive for the LF-LC.

  • Jake

    Even knowing that Europe wants diesel, Lexus can’t deliver it since they are marketing themselves as a green and environmentally friendly brand. Lexus should offer hybrid alternatives to diesel since this is what makes Lexus a Lexus, this is its cliche.

  • MT

    There is abolutely no point in having a “petrol-hybrid” or “diesel only” car lineup. If you process the crude oil in the refinery, there will always be certain amounts of gasoline and diesel. Not using both of them doesn’t make sense. 

    The Toyota diesel engines aren’t behind any of the competition. For example the 2,0 Avensis Diesel does 58 mpg (US) on the european cycle. This is just ten percent short of the Prius.

    Surely emission regulations will make Diesels more expensive and hybrids more attractive. But guys you don’t really believe that European governments will pass new regulations that will give Japanese hybrid cars an edge over European products?

    There is no business case for not having diesels in the lineup. If one is in the market for a fullsize sedan it most likely is a diesel. If L doesnt have that no one will buy a hybrid instead. Just head over to the Merc dealer an choose from a whopping load of 11 different powertrains including anything from 4 cylinder diesels to 12 cylinder gasoline to 6 cylinder hybrid.

    If Lexus comes ashore with one LS 450h and nothing else they are not even going to earn the costs of the printed brochures. European car market is different than US or Japan or China.

    Toyota once did great in Europe. They had many different models and sold solid numbers. Then they started to cut down on variants and left whole models away. And now they are outsold by anyone else, keep helplessly grasping for some miracle that sells a lot of cars over night that never appears. Now Lexus sells grand total about 2500 cars a year in Germany. 

    Benz, BMW and Audi all of them outsell that more than two by one with just their flagship sedans and Diesel engines from the past.

    So the LS 450h is a busness case all over the world, yes. It makes sense and will be a wonderful car. But here in Europe it will fail. 

    I am on the road and highway quite a bit. I do about 2000 miles a month. Today was the first time in may I saw a Lexus. And guess what it was an IS diesel. IS diesels are the only Lexus vehicles I ever see.

  • http://twitter.com/FreeSpirit16680 Мохамед Ибрагимов

    yes but they can do this without killing the 600h

  • http://twitter.com/FreeSpirit16680 Мохамед Ибрагимов

    hope sooooooo

  • http://twitter.com/FreeSpirit16680 Мохамед Ибрагимов

    yes that’s what i mean

    they can do LS450h & keep the LS600h / LS600hL 

    nothing wrong to have 2 hybrids

    that what they already do in this new generation 2013GS

    GS450h and in markets as AUS & JAP will come soon the GS300h

  • brian jou

    I was hoping lexus would have two different flavors to there cars. A fuel efficient line-up for people that are more mpg than mph, and a more tuned version for people that want mph than mpg. More tuned engine suspension etc for performance etc etc…

  • brian jou

    Yes I believe they did a comparison about high end hybrids and the s400 came out last out of 4 places…

  • brian jou

    like you said there engines are close to 8 years of age. It’s starting to get old everytime we hear a Lexus introduced with the same old engine but with a couple of tweaks to increase hp and torque along wit mpg. Lexus needs to do something exciting with there engines IMO

  • brian jou

    yes agree, but honestly Lexus has to adapt to the demands for hybrids and diesel. In european countries they want diesel so make more diesel cars over there. In the US people want petrol and hybrids so focus on these aspects and make more of what is trending in each country.

  • Wooski

    Agreed.  No reason can’t have both.

  • Jeff Taylor

    Seems like a good idea to me.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    My understanding is that Lexus is definitely planning some new engines, but that they be ready “when they’re ready”. Hopefully, that means some time soon.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    What’s surprising about Lexus vs. diesel — all it would take is one mid-range diesel engine and they could drop it in the IS, GS, LS, & RX. Something like the 3.0 L V6 from Mercedes that puts out 258 hp could work in every one of those vehicles.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Argh!

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    No way to say for sure, but I don’t think it will be long now.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    A LS 350 would be great, but I don’t see it happening. Hope I’m wrong.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Not sure about all of your picks (LS 300h is pushing it, even for me), but I would think the next-generation LS will retain its 4.6L engine as well.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    I just find this entire conversation so interesting — it’s so difficult to balance the future of the European market with the realities of the present, and I think that’s what’s so hard to understand. 

    There’s this sense that Lexus doesn’t want to “pollute” its brand image with diesel technology, and is willing to sacrifice marketshare in Europe in order to maintain its position as THE luxury hybrid manufacturer.

    The question is — what happens when all the other brands start spreading hybrid powertrains throughout their lineup? Won’t Lexus be back at square one?

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Thank you for sharing — your comment really helps to frame the European situation, which has become one of the most interesting Lexus storylines. At this point, I’d like to see even one diesel shared throughout the lineup.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/AVBALQBRIEZAYIYBYLPL6TUC5M buddy

    When you say planning is it as in Lexus is thinking about new engines or are they developing it? It’s always a mystery for Lexus .

  • BlackDynamiteNY

    This is what I expect to see out of The New LS:

    400HP 5.0 V8 LS500 (0-60 in 5.2)
    $75k base price to $80k for LWB
    Turbo-charged 500-550HP LS600 model $120k (0-60 in 4.2)
    Modest styling changes, outside of the spindle grille, with same basic platform and design cues
    Greater Use of aluminum and CFRP to knock 100-200 lb off per model. Base LS weighs 4125.
    LS450h getting 29 MPG combined pushing 350HP (no AWD)
    LS500 EPA 24 MPG combined
    LS600 EPA 20 MPG combined
    F-Sport model 
    Lighter AWD system
    Deeper color palette/interior material upgrade package available for the interior
    Stretched length and wheelbase of two inches
    BD

  • Vogel

    A Diesel is a must have if you want to compete in the european business car game.

    It just better for long distance driving, you don’t need to stop so often at the gas station. 

    A hybrid can’t match the highway mpg rates of a efficient diesel engine.

  • yosafbridge

    IMO, Lexus needs three different categories in its line-up

    Mainstream : efficient V6s/V8s
    Super fuel efficient/Super Ultra Low Emissions (SULEV) : Hybrids
    Performance : Supercharged V6s/ High Power V8s/V10s/V12s

  • yosafbridge

    An LS450h with a 3L petrol engine should solve the problem of expensive road tax.

  • LexusLVR

    Modern diesels are actually clean, refined (smooth) and powerful. My experiences with diesel rental cars in Europe has opened my eyes in that regard – and these are usually entry-level models, to.

    Before buying my Mercedes E350 Convertible I tested the diesel E350 Bluetec sedan because they didn’t have an E class coupe or convertible available on that day for testing. I was impressed with the car. Good performance but above all the refinement was pretty sweet. I wouldn’t say no to this car, but I wanted the convertible so the E sedan didn’t fit my needs.

    I did own a diesel Mercedes’ in the past, an E290 Turbodiesel Wagon W210, one of the few sold in the US at the time. Even for its time (and even today), I’d consider that car to have had some impressive engine refinement for a diesel. It was quiet for its time, especially inside the cabin one couldn’t hear the engine (unless it wasn’t warmed up).

    Now, with improving modern engine technology and sound-deadening-materials, a current diesel engine can be made smooth and refined.

    The problem I see is this. Lexus doesn’t need diesels outside of Europe, so they won’t invest resources in designing and engineering and testing one from scratch. It’s not financially logical. Is it doable? Yes. But is it worth the investments? Hardly.

    They could source a diesel motor from Toyota, but from what I hear the IS200d and IS220d engines aren’t that great. The V8 diesel from the Land Cruiser is overkill. Lexus does need a 4-cylinder and V6 diesel for their IS and GS and LS models in Europe (as well as for the RX). A 4-cylinder diesel for the CT200h wouldn’t be bad either.

    In the end I don’t think Europe is that important to Lexus. Many luxury shoppers in Europe place emphasis on brand prestige and history and Lexus lacks that. Look no further than the BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, Audi etc. museums and that tells you what those brands are all about. People can identify with those brands. Lexus is at a severe disadvantage in this case. A recent business article suggested that emotions play an ever increasing role when shops for a luxury car, especially in Europe. A European can identify say with BMW, their motorsport heritage and the many classic and historical cars they’ve created. That’s a very emotional aspect. It’s also a powerful and alluring aspect that draws in customers. Mercedes’ has it. Audi has it. Porsche has it. One could even say that brands like Fiat or Skoda or Citroen also have it. Lexus – in Europe – does not.

    Hence, I’m not to concerned with Lexus in Europe. I see the presence of Lexus in Europe as being more of a financial drain than bringing in any future profits. The UK and Russia seem to be their “biggest markets” there.

  • LexusLVR

    Spot on.

    The advantage of a hybrid is in the city where the electric motor helps keep fuel consumption down.

    But for long-distance road trips, hybrids are at a disadvantage because of the extra weight they have to lug around. I’ve noticed that when I’m driving rental diesel cars on the highways of Europe, they return respectable fuel economy. And I think this is the reason why hybrid sales have not exploded in Europe. A diesel car is seen as the better alternative and being more advantageous overall.

    Isn’t that new Citroen DS5 a diesel-hybrid?

  • MT

    Yes, it is. (the DS5)

    Toyota Gasoline hybrids are superior on highways when compared to normal gasoline cars because of the very efficient Atkinson cycle engine. The additional weight of the battery doesn’t do much harm to high speed efficiency, aerodynamics is much more important when going fast. 

    Weight is important in the city and there the hybrid is king of the hill.

    But a diesel engine operating at its “sweet spot” highway speed is still more efficient than the Atkinson gasoline unit and it always will be. It all comes down to more or less two main points: Compression ratio and air-fuel ratio. 

    These are two essential thermodynamic parameters you can not come around when dealing with combustion engines.

  • Joe

    MT, I perfectly understand your comments, but it is an old discussion.  Unfortunately Lexus is still recovering of the bad image of its only diesel engine it most likely will ever have.  The IS 220d has given one single positive item: a lot of after sales business.  For the rest it was already killed by competition on the moment it was launched.  The later 200d version didn’t help.  Again, unfortunately.

    The number of Lexus on the road is strongly depending from country to country in Europe.  If you say you only see IS diesel on the road, you definitely don’t live in The Netherlands, where Lexus is almost becoming a single model brand with it’s CT 200h succes! ;-)

    Lexus has an interesting business case here in Europe, even without diesel.  A diesel would still help a lot, of course, to boost sales on the short and mid term, but would be a catastrophy for its image on the long term. 

    But the brand has to be very careful of offering sufficient hybrid engine choices and models…

  • Dunraven77

    It is being released in Australia in October 2012. I would imagine it will be released in the US at the same time.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    The issue at Lexus seems to be the idea of trading in on their hybrid image for the benefits of short term sales with diesel — it’s a strategy that’s difficult to watch (especially for Lexus enthusiasts in Europe), but could result in benefits in the long term.

    As for history & heritage — well, that’s not something Lexus can do anything about, and will just take time. 

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    That syncs up with what I’m hearing.

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Well, there’s another way to look at — if Lexus stayed hybrid only, but offered a deeper range of engine options, would that be enough to interest the European buyer?

  • http://lexusenthusiast.com krew

    Too many engine options — I can’t see more than three powertrains in the LS, at least in North America, and I would be very surprised at a turbo-charged LS. Like your other ideas though.

  • BlackDynamiteNY

    I said three engines.  Hybrid, V8, and Turbo V8
    BD

  • LexusLVR

    But diesels in Europe are not going to disappear overnight. They’re an integral part of the European car culture. Lexus can’t ignore it.

    Hybrids are also expensive in Europe. A car with a regular gasoline engine or diesel motor is seen as more practical and less complex, to.

    In an ideal world Lexus would be offering both diesels, gasoline and hybrid motors to their European clients – CHOICES.

  • FooFoo

    The rest of the world drive smaller engines even in the luxury market.  I don’t know why Lexus misses this point. Two-litter 3-series is enough.  Smaller-than-three-litter e-class is being sold well.

  • Dunraven77

    I have seen one photo of the car. I understand it is a major facelift (spindle grill, GS interior etc). Designed to run for two years with all new model coming in 14. Not sure if there will be any engine changes.

  • Wooski

    Lexus will ignore diesel in Europe.  The BMW deal they did specifically applied to Toyota only – they cannot put BMW diesel motors into Lexus.

    What will kill the diesel is ever tighter air quality legislation in Europe – we are only just catching up with the US on this.  Even Euro 6 which comes into force in 2015 is only as tight as most US states now.  California I believe has even tighter standards.  NOX is the big issue.  Even my 2009 LS600h emits 3 times LESS NOX than the Euro 6 2012 S350 Bluetec diesal.  If and when they do a Euro 7 standard I think diesel will be in big trouble.

    What Lexus IS waking up too is that people equate hybrid with economy.  So we will see the GS300h next year and I’d be gobsmacked if a LS450h doesnt come at some point (though not necessarily for 2013).  I think the GS300h will be a very important car for Lexus in Europe.  If it works and sells then I would expect that downsizing thinking to spread to other models including the LS.

  • MT

    They are not going to put up some too strict to achieve Euro 7 goals. European governements are not going to kill their companies big sellers. 

    Same as with your US government. They are not going to impose CAFE MPG so high that Toyota hybrids will be the only cars allowed. That MPG number will be found in consensus with GM/Ford/Chrysler.

    The GS300h will be important, as numerous countries have taxes based on horsepower. But even more important would be a GS wagon. Same goes for the IS. 

    Like the ES350 / 300h my guess for the next LS will be 500 / 450h.

  • MT

    More options will help boost sales. Maybe a second engine option boosts sales of a model more than one would expect just because the customer gets “the model I chose, that fits best” not “the only one they have”. 

    In europe when buying a car one doesn’t go to the dealer lot and chooses one car. You go through endless cycles of choosing engine options, test driving them, configuring the gadgetry, blabla. 90% of the Toyotas/Lexuses bought are manufactured specifically to that configuration. And they have 4 to 5 months delivery time.

  • Flipside909

    With the return of ES 300 in h form, wouldn’t it be awesome as a throwback and homage to the first LS and call it LS 400h?