2011 Lexus GS Rumors
Motor Trend has some new rumors on the next-generation Lexus GS expected to debut in 2011, including some questionable information on engine specifications that make me doubt their source:
Gone is the current 4.6-liter V-8, replaced by a 2.5-liter V-6—most likely a version of the engine presently found in the IS. The present 3.5-liter V-6 will become the top of the range. About a year after launch, a 2.5-liter hybrid will reportedly be added to the GS lineup.
In contrast, the GS F variant will employ the IS F’s 5.0-liter V-8, but with strategic modifications including revamped ECU and exhaust. Horsepower will reportedly be boosted from 417 hp to as much as 464 hp.
...the GS F will also incorporate a lighter platform and some carbon fiber body parts to get pounds down to a target weight of around 3530 lbs.
Basically, this would equal a GS 250, GS 350, GSh & a GS-F, which means that Lexus’ sports sedan would experience a dramatic performance downshift, and not be offered with a V8 engine except in a F-Sport tuned model. How likely is that?
It’s true that the current GS 460 & GS 450h put out similar performance numbers, and that could make one of the models redundant in the future. And yet, Motor Trend’s lineup eliminates both. The entire lineup would need to hit the proposed 3530 lb weight to make this viable, never mind just the GS-F. I can’t see the IS 250’s engine even being able to move a GS without some drastic weight reduction, and even if it could, I doubt we’ll see a GS 250 in North America.
I don’t believe it for one second.
[Source: Motor Trend]
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Losing the V8 and/or hybrid equivalent sounds the strangest to me, I doubt Lexus will leave a huge gap between the GS 350 and GS-F.
Me thinks they got inside information on the next IS not GS
I believe the gap. The 460h didn’t sell very well. I don’t believe a GS250 will come stateside however.
The 2.5L shouldn’t be a problem for a car of this size. It does power the base model Toyota Crown Royal and base model Crown Athlete, which is heavier than the GS series. Motor Trend sources are not accurate, so I wouldn’t trust a thing from them.
But adding a 2.5L, 3.0L or 3.5L and a 4.6L would be a good ideal. Each model catering to a specific buyer. A 2.5L who is looking for a bigger and luxury sedan from the IS but isn’t power hungry, the 3.0L or 3.5L for a sportier tuned version the GS but one step up from the GS250, the 4.6L for the power hungry consumers who what power, luxury and sport. Then you have the GS-F which will go heads on with the AMG and M power vehicle.
A GS 250? NO WAY! Maybe in China like the ES….
Here’s my line up.
GS 370 IS 300 LS 500
GS 500 IS 370 LS 500 L
GS 500h IS 350h LS 650h L
GS F IS F LS F
GS 370C IS 300C
GS 500C IS 370c
GS F c IS F c
IS Hatch
They only did the ES240 to get rid of the surplus 2AZ-FE motors. Toyota has done it in the past with the 2ZZ-GE motors for the USDM Corolla.
@Eddie:
Sounds boring… so whatever the rumor says, I’ll just go along with Lexus. They know the business inside out *some sarcasm intended*
If this pans out to be true, I think the GS will become one of the lamest Lexus vehicles to be made next to the IS hatchback.
Why would anyone go for the GS over the ES? (base model)
I don’t think that a GS250 if made would be sold in the US. I think in the US we’ll have pretty much the same type of engines we have now with the addition of a range topping F model. I expect the GS 350 to return with maybe more hp and mpgs, a V8 engine with more power and efficiency (either the current LS engine or a detuned IS-F engine), a high powered hybrid (400hp hybrid anyone?
), and of course a new range topping F model with “hopefully” 500 or more horsepower.
The GS250 and GS300h makes sense in places like China where there’s new taxes on vehicles with more than 3L (hence the new ES240 that launched there). But in the US introducing a GS250 or GS300h would be suicide…
Lexus could be phasing out the ES if they did go this route.
I’m happy with the engine lineup in the current GS—add a 500hp GS-F to the mix and I think we’re golden. A little weight reduction would go a long way, but the issue with the GS isn’t the power, it’s the handling and overall feel.
Agreed. A GS 250 would be a mistake.
I’ve heard this rumor a few times—but the ES fits the lineup so well, not to mention being the highest selling car in the lineup, so I don’t see it. Cancelling the ES would essentially be giving sales to other brands, as I don’t see ES buyers in any other car in the lineup.
yup, killing the ES would be suicide too, but there are some places where the ES isn’t sold that a GS250 could work. BMW sells 4 cylinder 5 series in some places in the world so a GS250 wouldn’t be bad there. As has been said in the US GS250 is suicide.
The more I read this report the less it makes sense. If Lexus is going to launch a hybrid ES, then the GS would have to move upmarket a little more (not in price but in power and content). I can’t imagine the GS moving downmarket at the same time the ES adds upmarket options (like hybrid and rumored AWD).
HAHAH! this made lol , literally! GS250!!! scoff. c’mon, who comes up with this stuff? and what’s with the weird black stuff at the bottom of the photo clearly done on Paint?:-o
Don’t you remember the site maintenance picture?
@LFAaddict: Haha, thanks for pointing that out. I fixed the image.
@WorldofLuxury: Holy moly, you have one good memory.
@emptystreets130:
Toyota is a “just-in-time” manufacturer. They don’e have a surplus of engines just lying around. The engines, like all other parts are built for a specific vehicle and delivered “just-in-time” for installation. This is a large factor in how Toyota is so profitable.
I was thinking more along the lines of…
3.5L V6 - 330-350hp - $45,000 base ($50,000 w/options) - 0-60 around 5.4s
4.6L V8 - 400-420hp - $53,000 base ($58,000 w/options) - 0-60 around 4.7s
4.8L V10 - 550+hp - $85,000 base ($90,000 w/options) - 0-60 around 3.8s
3.5L V6 Hybrid - 395hp - $55,000 base ($60,000 w/options) - 0-60 around 4.5s
and maybe even… the 2.4L I4 Hybrid - 220-250hp and around 32-35mpg - $50,000 base ($55,000 w/options) - 0-60 around 7.0s
@WorldofLuxury:
i dont think i was even here at that time lol
GSF coupe or stationwagon please
I like your plans
But… I don’t think they’ll be able to get that much power from their engines. The 3.5L can probably only get 320hp tops, the 4.6L V8 definitely wouldn’t be able to get over 400hp, so they could just upgrade that to the 5.0L from the IS-F if they wanted 400hp or more.
This has been discussed before but the LFA V10 likely won’t be able to be used in the GS because of size and price issues. I expect a supercharged IS-F engine in the GS-F (500+ hp). You’re specs for the hybrid seem right on though. And no I doubt there will EVER be an I4 (even in hybrid form) in the GS
Coupe - YES
Wagon - not so much.
I don’t really “get” performance wagons since wagons are more or less family vehicles. I’d actually rather see an ES or even HS wagon than a GS-F wagon. But the Germans always have performance wagons so I guess Lexus could get into that business if they wanted to.
This is necessary for Lexus to be properly successful outside North America. The GS has only three engine options, and in some European markets only the hybrid is available. Compare this to BMW with 4 diesels (520, 525, 530, 535) and seven petrol engines (520, 523, 525, 530, 540, 550, M5).
Add to this that many markets have progressive taxes on emissions. In some markets this leads to the entry level price of a GS being more than twice the entry level price of a 5-series. Obviously a GS450h has more oomph and gadgets than a basic 520, but it is not worth twice as much to most people.
Right now only the LS and the RX are reasonably competitive in their classes throughout Europe. US+Canada is a huge car market with ~20 million sold in 2007, but Europe combined is bigger (~23million). Wouldn’t be very smart of Lexus not to adapt to this.
To be honest, I don’t think this sounds odd at all. I believe that they might have upgraded the 2.5l engine though. As it is done on other Toyota engines…Optimal Drive? Offering more engine options, and smaller engines would also be good competition wise. However, I would love to see a top modern diesel engine for the GS, especially for the European market where the GS competes with cars like BMW 5-series, Audi A6, and Mercedes E-class.
Thanks for your insight—it’s hard for me to picture a Lexus lineup without the ES and even harder to imagine the GS going downmarket (in North America)—but a GS 250 likely makes perfect sense to European customers, especially considering the competition’s numerous engine options. And when they already have the engine necessary on tap, why not?
I wonder if Lexus will ever get into the diesel game outside of the IS 220d—and what about diesel-hybrid? Wouldn’t something like that make a big splash in Europe?
@(Cj): I don’t know that any Lexus design would work as a wagon—but If Lexus even puts one foot towards something like the 5-series GT, I will lose my mind (and not in a good way).
A minor comment: The January 2010 print edition of Motor Trend has a much-condensed version of this online article that merely states that the next GS will be shorter (via less overhang, doesn’t specify if front or rear), lighter and no mention of the suspect GS 250. Curiously, it states that aluminum, and NOT carbon fiber would be what makes the 4th-gen GS lighter.
I like the sound of that—thanks for the info!
@krew: I agree..not to mention the Honda Crosstour…that would be a catastrophe..It would have been interesting to see how they possibly could make a pretty estate car out of their models, and I believe it could be done. However, that must have been without the designer of the IS hatchback.
Toyota is has frozen development of smaller diesels, stating hybrid is where the effort goes [1]. If Toyota/Lexus can provide several hybrid choices instead of diesels that would probably be satisfactory for Europeans. Toyota’s small diesels have a major drawback - they are almost never coupled to an automatic gearbox (IS220d is also manual only). So they have the choice of developing more diesel options plus automatic gearboxes, or they can spend it all on hybrid. The latter gives the same (or better in the future) fuel economy, more torque and far superior smoothness - so I think it’s the right thing to do.
[1] - http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBNG32831620090706
As for a diesel-hybrid; yes, that could be interesting. The PSA group [1] is investing heavily in diesel-hybrids. They already cooperate with Toyota and Mitsubishi on car manufacturing and with BMW and Ford on engines, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Toyota would get diesel-hybrid drive trains from PSA rather than doing in-house development.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Peugeot_Citroën
@(Cj):
i like that idea
plus the 2.5l it is much more than wanted in europe market and in egypt
I don’t think I like the idea of veering away from NA Engines into Supercharged ones… at least not for a Lexus. If they wanted, they could bore out the engines a little, similar to what Infiniti did, and go from a 3.5L to a 3.7… and just use the 5.0L V8 like you said, but not IS-F tuned (cost effective).
I think they could shoehorn the V10 in there… especially if they could shoehorn the 5.0L V8 into a little IS…
Isn’t the V10 about the same size and weight as the 350 engine? I can’t really get the facts straight because of the confusing press, but still, I bet fitting the amazing V10 from the LFA would be no problem at all.
The LFA V10 is actually smaller and lighter than the 2GR-FSE V6 from the IS 350, per the official LFA Product Presentation I attended. (see http://lexusenthusiast.com/2009/12/02/lexus-lfa-review-from-jruhi4/ ) Yet, don’t expect to see it in an IS any time soon. The LFA V10, lacking direct injection, is NOT optimized for fuel economy and, more than likely, will be only the second Japanese car subject to the U.S. gas guzzler tax (after some versions of the 1st-gen Infiniti Q45). Lexus may be willing to put up with that on the 150 LFAs earmarked for the U.S., but not for a greater-volume sports sedan.
What a bunch of BS from Motor Trend, typical of them to cook up some outlandish news just to fill up pages every month. I quit reading MT 5 years ago. With that line up the GS will never be able to compete with Infiniti or Acura much less Merc or Bimmer & no V8 ?! What a joke
Audi, BMW, and Mercedes Benz all have supercharged engines in some of their performance vehicles. I don’t see why Lexus can’t.
Also Toyota’s TRD has been supercharging for years. They’ve supercharged nearly every Toyota engine ever made. Do you remember the TRD supercharged Toyota Tundra? That 5.7L V8 Tundra got 504hp and 550ftlb of tq. That’s HUGE for a truck engine.
Imagine what they could do to the IS-F engine? The Toyota Mark-X supercharged (which is based on the GS), had 316hp and 304ftlb of tq, from a 3.0L V6! So I could imagine TRD/F easily getting 520hp or more (plus over 500 ft lb of tq) from a supercharged variant of the IS-F engine. Also the supercharged 5.0L would likely be more fuel efficient than a V10 too (and cheaper).
The problem would be the transmission wouldn’t fit in a production car. The tranny of the LFA is HUGE! That’s what I meant by size issues with the LFA V10. Also of course their’s the price and efficiency issues.
That doesn’t sound right, the current GS is aleady an inch shorter than the ES & is less spacious as a result, not to mention being smaller than the Germans. I’m certain the next GS will be longer & wider than the ES so as to position it correctly in size below the LS.
The point I was making is that both Motor Trend articles state that the next GS will be shorter, but the online version said the front overhang would be shorter whereas the print version didn’t specify whether the front or rear overhang would be shorter.
And, if there is a 6th-generation Lexus ES and it remains as a Toyota Camry derivative, it’ll be out within the same rough time frame as the 4th-gen Lexus GS, so who’s to say the next Camry/ES won’t be smaller and lighter as well?
my view
may be right or may be wrong as follow
ES ‘ll be deleted and even the HS after it’s life cycle
the next GS ‘ll have the following engine
GS250=so important in EU
GS300=so important in EU & GULF AREA
GS350=World Wide
GS400=JAPAN&EUROPE;
GS460=MAIN COMPETITOR TO BMW-550i & MB-E500
GS-F=MY MOST WANTED CAR AND I CAN BET THAT WE ‘LL FIND THE LFA ENGINE IN IT
GS350h=SO important in europe and i hope they increase it’s MPG so it ‘ll be a win card
GS450h=GS350h small brother
@mtema99:
plus
the body style ‘ll be a tweaked 4-doors coupe of the LFA with a lines from FISKER KARMA & MASERATI QUATTROPORTI
with total lenght near the first generation GS lenght(4.90m)
Since the new 2011 m56 have already play their cards, the new lexus gs-f is gonna top that and win the game no doubt. With the new GS offering 464hp i think thats enough for an upgrade and i’m sure the 0-60 is gonna be better that the new infiniti m. Dont expect lexus to play all its cards like the infiniti m56 did by jumping to a 5.6L instead using the 5.0 they already have in their FX and only gaining 420hp to the new M, thats a joke…. Lexus4life
Never said they couldn’t do it… I just don’t like the idea of veering off of what works for the brand.
Toyota is Toyota and Lexus is Lexus… don’t confuse the brands… I think it shows how talented the engineers are at Lexus and Toyota by being able to build such efficient and powerful engines without relying on forced induction. Plus, how many of the most “reliable” cars on the road are naturally aspirated? As far as I know, Civics, Accords, Camrys, and Corollas are all NA… as are all the vehicles in Lexus’ line. People that buy a Lexus pretty much marry the brand. I know people that still have their original LS400, 200,000-300,000 miles later still rocking. How many people that drive a Mercedes, BMW, or Audi can attest to that?
totally agree with you
my father 84’ MY Cressida we donna sold it until it gain 1Million KM
my old 94’GS
and my family 94’LS
we sold ‘em from 2 years ago
the GS make 400,000 KM
& the LS make around 700,000 KM
@Adam:
From the looks of how the marketing is swaying, I think there is a possibility that FI will make it’s way into the mainstream. A lots of company is downsizing their engine and either slapping a turbo or SC on them to makeup the power loss but at the same time increasing fuel economy. I think Ford is heading in the right direction with the EcoBoost engine and MB is following right behind them; along with a few Japanese auto makers.
Toyota jumped out of the turbocharged business a few years ago because of the rising emission and cost. But Toyota was dealing with decade old technology a few years ago and that’s the JZ series block. If Toyota did spend some time in the R&D stage for a better I6 motor, I’m pretty sure Toyota will jump back in the FI party.
@Brendan:
I’m pretty sure they have a small surplus. I was able to get an EGR valve directly from Toyota the next business day. A few weeks ago, a mirror assembly the next day. All this on a Toyota that about 3 decades old. I understand what you’re saying and I read the book since it was required reading.
Good point—but surely it could be mated to another transmission?
Only problem with the ES getting smaller is how close it is already to the HS—I don’t know how the HS fits in the lineup long term. Is there really a question what people would buy if there was a hybrid ES?
@emptystreets130: Even Mercedes is getting away from the massive engines and moving towards a twin-turbo.
Sucks… I love naturally aspirated engines…
If force-induced, then I’d love to have a supercharger, but that’s also another fuel-sipping method. I wish gas were cheap again…
I agree, Sometimes I feel that Lexus shot themselves in the foot with the HS. Only future I see for the HS is for it to be transformed into a Prius style hatchback.
I think you said it in another thread, but Lexus should have just made the next gen ES a dedicated hybrid. Put the new 2.7L or 2.5L I4 in it, with a nice electric system for an ES300h, and then use the RX’s hybrid system for a more upmarket ES400h.
@emptystreets130: Toyota has more recent SC applications also, and they get competitive numbers from their SC applications (they match or exceed most of the current competition including Ford and Audi). So yes an updated SC system would be nice, but what they have now isn’t bad. They could introduce a 500hp supercharged GS-F tomorrow if they wanted to.
@(Cj): Maybe they’re trying to maintain an image for the HS: nerdy and a bit aggressive; the ES is simply sleek and beautiful - rather free from the obsession with dimensions v. volume and stuff. Makes me think… is Toyota looking forward into the future farther than we are, or are they ready and prepping something for us soon? What about Detroit’s NAIAS?! Is the LF-Ch gonna be displayed in production form… just a great subcompact with a hybrid engine… a car people buy, and that’s it?
@WorldofLuxury: Not sure where you’re going, but I personally think that the LF-Ch should have been Lexus’s first dedicated hybrid. They’re was no room in the lineup for the HS to begin with, unless they were considering killing the ES (not a good idea) or moving the ES upmarket (not the best idea). But there WAS room for a stylish entry level hybrid hot-hatch (since their is no vehicle in the lineup that fills that niche).
Then they could have strategically positioned the next ES as the first dedicated hybrid luxury sedan and then they could have done the same for the RX later (first dedicated hybrid CUV). That would have been a better plan, then introducing the HS (now they can’t make the whole lineup hybrid as they had planned to…).
So now there is the question of will we get a hybrid IS? That would essentially be the same price as the HS too… There are just too many complications now
The production version of LF-Ch (most likely wearing the CT 200h moniker) is expected to debut at the 2010 Geneva Auto Show in March, then make its North American debut a month later at the New York Auto Show.
Don’t expect to see a hybrid version of the 2nd-generation IS. They’re probably saving it for the 3rd-gen, which is expected to debut for the 2013 model year.
Oh, and I like the two-hybrid version plan for the next ES (ES 300h with a 2.5 or 2.7-liter 4 and ES 450h with the 3.5 V6). Lord knows if it’ll actually happen, though…
Thanks for the info on the LF-Ch (“CT 200h”).
Yeah, I didn’t expect a hybrid version of the current IS because their isn’t any trunk space for batteries anyway haha. But even so, when a hybrid version does arrive, where is it going to fit in the lineup? Unless they make it an IS450h (not sure if an IS like that would sell), I don’t see how an ISh and the HS can coexist, let alone the ES and ESh.
Yeah, krew is actually the one behind the two tier ES hybrid line idea, but I don’t remember which thread? Anyway, I think that would have been better than launching the HS sedan, but maybe Lexus has a bigger plan? I do know that, even though the HS doesn’t make sense in Lexus’s US lineup, in Japan where the ES isn’t sold, it makes perfect sense, and it’s still the #1 selling Lexus there.
again
why need of HS & ES
make the GS bit taller = delete the ES
makeing CT & a bit lenghty NG IS = delete the HS
simply
for sedans
LS-}GS-}IS-}CT
for SUV’s
LX as a truly RANGE ROVER , X5 & FX competitor
GX as X6 competitor
RX as X3 , ML & EX competitor
for performance
LFA with the next generation turn to be a totally competitor to ferrari and lamborgini
I think Lexus realize the overlap if they do expand. They’ll probably have to make a choice. After all, there is one element that we have forgotten. There is still the Avalon and to me, it already overlap the ES is every way. (Same powertrain, same chassis, nearly the same level of quality, same pricing point on the XL or XLS)
The Avalon could move more upscale in it’s next generation bridging the gap from Toyota to Lexus as the ES replacement. That could solve Lexus overlap issues within the Lexus brand. Then the HS or IS (or whatever Lexus is planning) could be the entry level sedan and Lexus wouldn’t have to worry about what they would do with the GS.
so the better is to delete the AVALON
and start marketing the MARK-X to replace it
the new generation MARK-X looks handsome , more upscale , rear wheel drive , sporty (the 3.5l out 360 hp) & in length it is shorter than the GS and taller than the IS
they can even deltet the CAMRY & AURION
cause the MARK-X contain the LUXURY(AVALON) , the SPORTY(AURION) , the MAINSTREAM & HYBRID(CAMRY) , and looks a lot like ‘em and also it’s front a lot like the ES front
so lexus have
LS,GS,IS,CT
toyota have
MARK-X,COROLLA,YARIS
and if they wanna large cruiser to be toyota north america flagship
they have either the CROWN or the MAJESTA
That makes no sense whatsoever. Toyota needs to keep the Camry obviously because that’s the number one selling sedan in the country. Toyota has trademarked the Crown name in the US, so they could possibly bring the Crown over to replace the Avalon and go head to head with the Hyundai Genesis, but don’t expect the new Toyota flagship to replace the ES.
The ES is one of Lexus’s first models, ever, so they need to keep it for history’s sake. They have two options at this point. They can move the ES upmarket or keep it where it is and either reposition the HS (maybe as a Prius style hatchback) or phase the HS out after only one generation.
Phasing the HS out wouldn’t be good from a PR perspective, so I think we’ll see the ES repositioned and the HS re-imagined for their respective next generations. There are rumors that the next ES may move to a RWD platform, and if this is the case then that would mean the ES could be moving upmarket. Could that mean that the next GS is going to be a 4 door CLS type Coupe? Who knows?
But likewise if the ES doesn’t move upmarket, I can see the next HS (which will probably be 5-6 years down the road), being a 5 series GT type vehicle. Yes that would be controversially ugly, but where else is the HS going to go if the next gen IS and ES have hybrid variants?
Avalon isn’t going anywhere. In fact, the 4th-gen version is slated to debut at the 2010 Chicago Auto Show in February.
Having said that, I, too, would love to see the Mark X in North America, but it ain’t happenin’, folks.
@(Cj):
Well history does not dictated anything for Toyota apparently. Toyota killed off some historical vehicle like the Mark II and renamed the Mark X, the Corona replaced by the Allion/Premio, The Corolla nameplate about to be a footnote if Toyota continues to rename their Corolla lineup. They also killed off the ES in certain market even tho it was one of two vehicle that launched Lexus in the first place.
As far as having the Mark X, it would just over lap into the IS and GS. They are physically the same vehicle underneath all that skin. I would love to have the Mark X back as the new Cressida and recent attempt by the Cressida forums proven it was difficult.
It made sense as to why Toyota killed the Cressida/MarkII for the global market (excluding Japan) but it didn’t make sense as to why Toyota needed to have a luxury flagship of their own 4 yrs after they decided to kill the Cressida nameplate. They could of just moved the Camry up a status quo but that failed as well.
@emptystreets130:
am with you in that
toyota has no problem to kill model names
and the history said that they killed the most wonderful ones
SUPRA,CELICA&CRESSIDA;
and i also with (Cj)in the CROWN issue
it ‘ll make a great fabilous replacement to that bloated avalon
and make toyota go head to head with Hyundai
how can Hyundai have a rear wheel base car in toyota’s biggest market and toyota didn’t make any thing
i think the line up of toyota ‘ll be great by replacing the AVALON with the CROWN
and about CAMRY either return it to be RWD based or killed it and replaced it with the MARK-X
and my dream (hope no one think that am a fancy guy it is just an imagination)
that the FT-86 to be COROLLA COUPE (AE86)
and the COROLLA sedan turn to be 4 doors from it
and the CAMRY stike as a long wheel base with some tweaks from the COROLLA as CAMRY and COROLLA nowadays with the return of the SOLARA as FT-86 but with some modification and large wheel base
and all 4 (CAMRY/SOLARA) (COROLLA/AE86) be boxer engine RWD
up of ‘em as a flagship either the MAJESTA or the CROWN
and under ‘em the YARIS
@mtema99:
The Crown is too expensive even if it did replace the Avalon, the Crown has a status quo that’s higher than the Avalon even higher than the LS.
here is a small comparison between the CROWN prices and the GS/IS prices inside japan
CROWN royal
2500cc . 2WD = US$ 48,600.
2500cc . 4WD = US$ 51,600.
3000cc . 2WD = US$ 59,400.
3000cc . 4WD = US$ 62,400.
CROWN athlete
2500cc . 2WD = US$ 48,700.
2500cc . 4WD = US$ 51,700.
3500cc . 2WD = US$ 61,700.
CROWN hybrid
US$ 67,500
IS
IS350 . 3500cc . 2WD = US$ 62.500.
IS250 . 2500cc . 2WD = US$ 53,500.
IS250 . 2500cc . 4WD = US$ 57,000.
GS
GS430 . 4300cc . 2WD = US$ 73.000.
GS350 . 3500cc . 2WD = US$ 62,000.
GS350 . 3500cc . 4WD = US$ 66,000.
GS hybrid
US$ 88,300
for more model check batfa.com
from above you ‘ll see that the crown athlete 3.5l still cheaper than the lexus badged IS with the same engine
so i think it make out more style , mechanical , technological enhancment than the AVALON
Note i excluded the MAJESTA in my review
as it ‘ll be much higher even than the GS and approches from LS prices
You’re thinking of the Majesta as mtema99 pointed out. The base Crown is pretty much the same as the Hyundai Genesis, and if brought to the states would likely be priced as such.
Toyota has patented “Crown” in the US recently so it “could” be coming to the US. There are rumors that the next generation ES is going to be a rebadged Toyota Crown (just like how the GX/LX are rebadged Landcruisers), since the ES isn’t sold in Japan. Or the Crown could be coming to replace the Avalon as Toyota’s flagship.
@(Cj):
The Crown was sold in the States back in the 60s. It would be wise for Toyota to patent that name for later use if Toyota decided to bring the Crown back. The Crown is slightly larger than the GS. I don’t see how they can badge it as the ES or the Avalon. It would be stupid of Toyota to have two different flagship in the same market that has the same status if the Crown was marketed in the Lexus brand.
@ mtema99. The Crown Athlete with the 3.5L is 5,670,000 yens which roughly equals $64k while the IS350 is 5,410,000 yens which is about $62k off of Toyota and Lexus.jp.
to add on, the Majesta is just an extension of the Crown lineup just as the LS460L/600L is to the LS series.
shoot i wish there was an edit button but again, it would be degrading to see the Crown priced lower than what it is to satisfied the needs to compete with the Genesis. I’m talking about a car that putted Toyota on the board. Not something Toyota whipped out in the last year. I’m talking about 6-7 decades of Toyota history right here and it’s just not there to be a replacement for the Avalon or the ES. It’s very degrading for Toyota to do that.
i failed then
or their is another scenario
making the NG (LS/GS/IS) sporty as the italian maserati quattroporti sedan for example
makes toyota enter NA with the classic RWD sedan as the MAJESTA,CROWN&MARK;-X
@emptystreets130:
, but maybe they’re just going to make a new trim level for their cars? Who knows.
Yeah the Crown was one of the first Toyota’s sold here but it didn’t sell well… I have no idea what Toyota plans to do with their patent, and I actually am having a hard time finding where I read about the patent
If they do bring it over I think that would be good. If it’s brought here as a Toyota, it would be Toyota’s logical answer to the Genesis. Only problem with that is that the Genesis isn’t selling well, so who knows what the fate of an expensive flagship Toyota Crown would be (hopefully not as bad as the first Crown…).
Bringing it as a Lexus makes the most sense to me. The current ES is the same size as the Crown. If the next ES was a rebadged Crown the base price would probably rise from the mid $30s, to the upper $30s or even to the $40K. This would leave plenty of space for the HS and IS as the new entry levels, and this would allow for the next GS to be more sport focused, and maybe even transform into a CLS type vehicle.
This is just fanciful suggestions, but it’s all possible. Anyway most likely scenario is that the next GS gets bigger and remains a sedan, the next ES continues to be based on the Camry, and the Avalon continues on unchanged.
@mtema99
I don’t think Toyota will have any RWD vehicles except the FT and maybe the flagship Crown. The majority of the sedans and CUVs will probably remain FWD because of cost.
Same size, yes but they are both in a different class.
Still, Toyota isn’t that stupid to turn a legend like the Crown into a daily cruiser like the ES or Avalon. No way… Toyota and Lexus knows better. If they want to, they need to bring the Mark X instead and kill both ES and Avalon. It makes more sense to replace a mid-level luxury sedan(Avalon/ES) with another mid-level luxury sport sedan(Mark X). The Crown is a full sedan vehicle and it doesn’t make sense for Lexus to have 2 full-size luxury vehicle in their profile. They’ll just compete against each other.
@emptystreets130: you approch to my view
but imagine if the LS looks too sporty as the Rapide
and below the GS looks as the CLS
and below the IS looks also a sporty
all the 3 is semi 4 door coupe and under ‘em a muscle hatchback as the CT
so that ‘ll leave a great space 4 toyota to sell it’s regular RWD sedan without any intersection
@mtema99:
TOYOTA WILL NEVER HAVE A RWD SEDAN LINEUP!!! Plain as that. RWD cars cost more and that’s why currently only Lexus has a RWD lineup. So don’t get you’re hopes up. The FT-86 is coming but that’s cheaper since it’s a joint development with Subaru. The only other RWD vehicle that may come to Toyota is a flagship, but the Camry and Corrolla with likely always and forever be FWD.
@emptystreet:
The Crown isn’t some exclusive super flagship as you’re portraying it. Toyota Japan’s super flagship is the Century which has a V12 and is as big as the LS. The base Crown is Japan’s soft midlevel luxury sedan actually. The Mark X is Japan’s the sporty midlevel luxury sedan. So in reality the Crown is the equivalent of the ES and the Mark X is more or less like the GS (but slightly smaller). The Crown Majesta is Japan’s equivalent to the LS.
Replacing the ES with the Crown in my mind makes sense. Replacing the Avalon with the Crown makes a little less sense because of pricing, but anything could happen especially since vehicles like the Genesis and upcoming Equus are here.
@(Cj):
Go learn your vehicle. The Century is not a mainstream vehicle. The Crown is Toyota’s mainstream flagship. The ES is a POS and Lexus knows that it didn’t make the cut in any of the market except for the US. The Crown will never replace the ES or Avalon. The Crown MJ is every bit a Crown as is the LS460/600L is to the LS series. No difference at all. The Crown has more advance features than the LS itself. I can start listing out a few that didn’t make the cut on the LS if you would like.
I know what the Toyota Century is by the way. I didn’t want to bring it up because it’s not mainstream and reserve only for the highest up.
If you want to play it your way, then the Century should be the ES/Avalon replacement. Seeing that you like associate a a legendary vehicle with a vehicle that doesn’t carry any weight at all.
The Crown is obviously better than the LS, especially those sold in Japan. Just about anything sold in Japan is more advanced then their US counterparts. The reason why the ES is not working out is still a complete mystery to me - either that, or I’d be happy to list down everything I have in my mind… but I already have… and I’ve got more… but I don’t want to. aha
Oh, and Toyota has to start to realize that the Volt’s powertrain is much more feasible. Toyota should collaborate with GM once again and teach GM how to build reliable cars while Toyota gets to license the Volt powertrain. NO FOOLING AROUND THIS TIME! GM would ultimately save money in reliability R&D, and Toyota can finally prove to others that its stubborn Japanese nature hasn’t kept itself from doing what is right, both morally and financially (for both Toyota and GM and the customers).
I mean… the engine in the Volt doesn’t need to work as hard when demanded as Prius’. And yadda yaddah yada. If Toyota has to only focus on efficiently using the electric power while maintaining a durable powertrain, imagine the possibilities.
- then, Tesla would be knocking on the door
- Lotus would want a test of the excitement
- Lotus and Tesla get into a fight
- great things happen… cheaper gas hehe
Love the idea of the Crown coming in to replace the ES, but pricing would likely make it impossible—and that’s ignoring the fact that Camry development will be tied directly with the ES. I don’t see Toyota getting rid of the Camry, too much goodwill in that model.
I love the Crown though—too bad I can’t picture it in the Lexus lineup without replacing the ES. Pretty amazing that the GS, IS, Crown & Mark X all share the same platform.
I can’t imagine Lexus lowering the power on the GS.
I think they’ll just barely up the power on the GS350. GS450h, and GS460 while adding a GS F. Because if you lower the power on the GS, there wouldn’t be any reason to buy that over an ES, other than just looks.
If they come out with a GS250, i’m going to be shocked. I wouldn’t mind seeing a GS350d though.
@(Cj): Based on what you’ve said and whats been mentioned above, it sounds like Lexus is going to have some serious problems when it come to model placement.
I doubt the GS will be lowered to a GS250(in the US anyway), the ES will stay in its place. Even if an ISh comes along, that still shouldn’t take away from the other models that much because it will be a different kind of vehicle. The people wanting a sporty ISh would probably not even look at the HS. And if some ones is looking at a ISh, the GSh would be much more expensive and would probably be out of their range.
In the future this is what I see happening:
CTh
IS
IS C
ISh
IS F
HSh
ES
GS
GSh
GS F
LS
LSh
LS F
SC
RX
RXh
GX
GXh
LX
LFA
you may say “thats too many models” but look how many different variations BMW and Mercedes have. This will fall right in line with what ever they have. Even though many other brands don’t have hybrid and high performance variants, this segment will without a doubt grow.
Good Lord @emptystreets130! I’m sorry if I offended you in anyway! Mtema99 already proved that the Crown is cheaper than the IS and HS in Japan, so I don’t know why it would be infeasible as an ES replacement here in North America.
@James the HS offers a sport package that makes it as sporty as an IS250, so there is still some overlap. If the IS had a hybrid version I don’t imagine many people buying it since it likely won’t be as roomy as the HS and it’ll also probably be more expensive. These are the type of problems I’m talking about, and the more entry level sedans Lexus adds to the lineup the worse the overlap gets.
Now if the Crown/ES rumor were true, then the ES would be moving up market slightly to be the soft option for midlevel buyers (A6, 5, E), while the GS would be the sporty option. Likewise Lexus could reposition the HS as the soft entry level and the IS as the sporty entry level. Then on top of the lineup would be the LS and LFA.
@(Cj):
you mean what am said before but without toyota & lexus
is that true
you mean that the MAJESTA , CROWN & MARK-X wanna cam toyota but came lexus
let’s say
the HS=MARKX
CROWN=ES
MAJESTA= let’s say MS
and let the
LS,GS,IS as sporty 4 doors coupes
@(Cj): Oh. I forgot about the sport package on the HS. I guess there is some overlap.
@James: What’s funny is according to some reviews the HS with sport package handles BETTER than an IS250, and is even more fun to drive
The HS looks like a cheap ford vehicle with such a grill…yack
To get back to the main topic, I hope the 2011 GS will look more aggressive and not so pointy as it it now. The 2nd Gen GS was the most appealing in appearance except the lacking of features. If the new GS could look somewhat like the 6 series bimmer coup, but with 4 drs. I would be happy. Wouldn’t you agree?
@gummy: I agree. The next generation will have to look more agressive than it does now.
Lexus will also have to fix some of the GS’ quality issues. Its currently the least reliable Lexus. I know several people who have one and 2/3 of them say that they hear rattles at high speeds. At first, it was pretty hard to believe untill I heard several other people complain of the same issues.
@gummy: The HS looks much better in person than it does in pictures. But I agree, the grill does look oddly similar to the Ford grill. I still like the HS though.
@James: I’ve seen the HS a few times. There are quite a few in my city.
My complaint would be that the headlight color isn’t pretty. I don’t recall white colors, but even more, the blue tinting isn’t apparent. When seen at night, the HS does not have any distinct appearance. The car should make a statement day and night - should look appealing and recognizable. Why would anyone want their vehicle recognized as a Toyota despite the huge premium?
Another thing would be that I’ve seen the HS passing by in front of me at an intersection. Awkwardly, it looked like the HS was tiptoeing one its tiny toes, and the body looked like a floating, shiny box with a canopy on top.
However, I have found the HS very attractive when I drove past one. I was in my LX, so I was high up. The HS had a nice, aggressive stance, and the grille made a good statement, and I really like the chrome surrounding the grille. (The new GX’s grille has awkward resemblance - still love the thick chrome)
@WorldofLuxury: I agree. I’ve seen a fe HS around and it doesn’t have a distinct appearence at night.
I love your description of it though.
@James. I currently owned a GS460 and I must say that it doesnt handle pot holes or rough roads really well. Same with my previous 06’ GS 430, it hadles really rough. The 2nd Gen GS’ was a smoother ride. My wife IS250 awd handles pot holes way better than the gs. Hope toyota will resolve this problem with the 4th generation GS model.